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"Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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(expired 00:01, 8 February 2016)

I've gone ahead and expanded this discussion to WP:RfC input, since the discussion below, this, this and the related discussion at Talk:Woman indicate that wider input is needed. My commentary below is the older commentary. The RfC concerns whether or not to expand the guideline that was formed via this discussion to cover all topics about large human populations. Some editors also wonder whether the guideline should only focus on lead images. I will alert the WP:Image use policy talk page and WP:Village pump (policy) to this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Sandstein added the following to the page: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious." It was added per the WP:Consensus formed in this discussion. But that close only concerns ethnic/"race" matters, not all topics about large human populations. This is why I stated at Talk:African Americans, "I'm not sure how the WP:Consensus from that discussion will hold up, given that we still have such galleries at the Man and Woman articles, etc., which are just as subjective, but it's the WP:Consensus for now." Sandstein's wording here at the guideline is broader than the aforementioned close. Furthermore, I don't see how the ethnic/"racial" images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state. For example, the inclusion of Mariah Carey as African American, which resulted in a big dispute at Talk:African Americans, is based on sources; this is also made clear by this RfC at Talk:Mariah Carey.

I'll alert Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style to this matter for wider input. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

My impression from the RfC was that while the question posed was about ethnic groups, the arguments advanced were such that they applied to all large human populations (OR, contentiousness, and the question of whether a select few individuals can visually represent a large group). But if others don't see it that way, I'd have no problem with striking " or similarly large human populations" here.  Sandstein  22:02, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

A possibly useful (local) consensus was reached in this discussion at Hungarians around this issue. Basically, when individuals are specifically discussed and their relevance described, portraits complement the text. But an arbitrary gallery of individuals used simply to represent the group as a whole adds little value and invariably breeds conflict over which individuals should be included. Probably won't defuse all disputes around this issue, but this approach puts the onus on those who insist on including an image of a given person to actually develop the article to include that person's relevance. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support a broad application of this principle (i.e., Oppose removal of the guideline addition, though I'm open to some adjustments, Support removal of the infobox galleries). These "galleries of faces" are not useful and do nothing but generate strife of multiple sorts: Whether a given person qualifies, whether they're exemplary, whether a mixed-background person is having one aspect of their background overemphasized (the central issue in the Carey debate, and one that is not resolved despite suggestions above that it is), who gets to be included, whether the mix is balanced (modern and historical, arts and sciences, political and non-political, male and female, etc., etc.), how many to include, and so on. It's also lead to really excessive treatments (some of the historical versions of the article White people were pretty crazy). These infobox galleries really don't do anything useful for the reader. More often than not they simply distract, by injecting "why is that person included here?" skepticism into their reading experience. I agree with the above that inclusion of people in the text is more helpful, where the context requires a sourced justification for their inclusion. The purpose of infoboxes is to summarize the gist of articles, not to serve a back door for the insertion of OR and trivia. In the end, this is very much like flag icons, and it shares many of the same rationales against inclusion, especially PoV-pushing overemphasis and a propensity to generate frequent conflict that has little to do with making the encyclopedia better.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC) [Clarified: 15:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)]
• Support the general principle. The wording could be adjusted to more clearly reflect the idea that it is the "galleries of notables" that are inappropriate; individual images of representative (non-notable) samples from a population are ok. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:46, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Sandstein, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish and David Eppstein, my thing is: The current wording is overly broad when the consensus discussion was not that broad, no matter that Sandstein states that he interpreted it that way. The word similarly can be interpreted in different ways. I noted that "I don't see how the ethnic/'racial' images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state." This means that I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/"race," then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables. Stating that this gallery matter should only apply to notables will not stop the same POV-pushing from happening to no-names being included in such a gallery. Furthermore, I don't see how one can regulate this. For example, at the White people article, images of notables are still currently there, even after I left this note. If people see that one article (like White people) gets to have such images, they will feel that the other article (for example, Black people) should as well. If it's a gallery of no-names, someone will eventually add a notable person, and then someone will add another and another notable person. And I reiterate that this same type of POV-pushing has happened at the Man and Woman articles. In the case of the Woman article, see this discussion and keep scrolling down; the idea of including a trans woman is constantly at debate at that article's talk page. I don't see that these image matters will be regulated too successfully, if successfully at all, especially if it is applied to more than just ethnicity and "race." And another important aspect is that if an editor feels they are only allowed to add one lead image in cases such as these, that one lead image will become a source of contention as not being representative enough. The desire people have for lead images, for those images to be representative, and to include notables instead of no-names, will likely overrule this guideline. It will be another guideline that barely anyone follows. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

True, the original discussion was not that broad; that's why we're having another discussion now about applying the same principles more broadly. As for OR, I'm not so much worried about that (as we can generally find sources attributing membership of people in these groups) and more worried about two other issues: (1) the fact that the notable people of a group are not representative of that group, almost by definition, since they're the ones that stand out, and (2) the often-contentious issue of who to include in a space that is generally too small to list all notable members and where many editors are likely to have political reasons for pushing to include some specific people and exclude others. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The fact that the RfC wasn't as broad as what's contemplated now is why we're having the discussion – to see if there's consensus to extend it. The fact that the consensus might not extent that far isn't an argument against the proposition, it's a precondition of it. I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes. If people think that some kind of "gallery of qualifying faces" is needed, they can use the <gallery> feature, in the main body of the article, and provide source citations at each entry in it, to forestall disputes and confusion. I entirely agree with you that limiting these infobox galleries to "notables" would not fix the issue. How would we be including non-notables anyway, if there aren't any articles about them to link to; just pasting in random faces from Commons pictures? I'm skeptical that inclusion of non-notables is a big issue, though I have not trawled every single discussion about these things, so I may have missed something. I agree that there will always be debates about images included in such articles. If they're kept out of a tight-grid infobox, and required to be sourced in the article, this greatly reduces the potential for POV, OR, and related disputes about these pictures. For example, the obvious way to deal with including a transwoman at the Woman article is to have a section for that (a short one linking to the main article on that, per WP:SUMMARY) with one or more photos that pertain, in that section. No issue of "should there be a TG woman in the infobox" ever arises in such a case. It's all a WP:COMMONSENSE matter to me: If people are fighting about some style matter that is not actually important to the encyclopedia, look for a way around it by removing what they're fighting about since it's not essential – like taking a toy away from two children who can't stop squabbling over who gets to play with it. A potential solution for an article like African Americans is to rotate who appears there. We could probably set up a script that auto-rotated them from a pool of images, though that might require a Lua module. Or just nominate a new image of the month, or whatever. For such articles, having one male and one female for representativeness purposes should work, but we don't need a PoV-pushing and OR-infested large collection of images there being included for dubious reasons.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(ec) There's always the possibility that guidelines are not followed. But at least in the cases covered by the RfC there was the active desire of many editors to get rid of these galleries because of the problems associated with them, so I think it's worthwile to note the principle here. That doesn't change that case-by-case dicussions may need to be had for many pages. Regarding OR, I too read the discussion as highlighting the OR problem of how to decide who to include, rather than whether certain individuals belong to the group, which is more often verifiable.  Sandstein  22:35, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Per what I stated above, I just don't see this guideline working. There are guidelines that are commonly followed, and then there are the ones commonly ignored. If this guideline were to work, I agree that it would obviously result in a lot less arguments. As for the case-by-case basis matter, that will turn into a "Since that article has a gallery for the lead, this one can too." argument. Again, see my White people article vs. Black people article example above; that aspect will become a reality if the White people article is allowed to have images. As for original research, the WP:OR policy is based on the WP:Verifiability policy; I don't interpret it as being any broader than that. Regardless, per what I stated above, I think that the wording you added needs improvement. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

What will almost always be OR is the selection of which images are included and the resulting implication that these are the most notable. Very unlikely to find a RS that says "these are the 16 most notable Xs." So the resulting selection is necessarily OR and generally POV as well. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Laszlo Panaflex, I see what you mean, but I don't interpret the WP:OR policy as policing infobox images in that way, except if an editor were to state, "These images should be in the infobox because they are the most notable people according to reliable sources.", or something similar to that. Otherwise, we freely select infobox images, and, per WP:Pertinence, have more leeway with them. Of course, no source is going to state that we need to have a certain number of people in a Wikipedia infobox. In the case of people, a person generally should not be included as white, black, etc. unless a reliable source validates that inclusion. I state "generally" because there is the case of no-names, who are not likely to have sources verifying their ethnicity or "race," and some people will argue that a person is obviously white or black, etc.; I also state "generally" because stock photos have been discussed at WP:Med before, and some editors still are not sure if we should have an image of a person looking like they are suffering from a certain medical condition if they aren't; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 67#Wikipedia to promote stock health photography. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I would add that it's actually quite common to find "top 10 most-influential [whatever]" articles, and on smaller groups (Trobriand Islanders, whatever) it's pretty easy to use N grams to see who gets mentioned the most in published books. This tells us who is probably a good bet to mention in the article, including in a <gallery>, with sources that they are a member of that group and a considered a notable one. It doesn't do anything about the other problems associated with trying to stuff a grid of tiny, unsourced faces into an infobox. I didn't mention it earlier, but these things, aside from all the other issues, are just pointless noise on smaller monitors. Not everyone has a 27 inch monitor.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

And these "10 Most Influential" articles, that might be based on X-hits on google, often include negative figures (after all Hitler probably has more Google hits than Goethe) that editors usually delete from "notable galleries" because they reflect negatively on the people in the article. That's where POV comes in to override the supposed neutrality of hit counts and "10 Most Influential" articles. Rare is the gallery that includes a Stalin (as at Georgians). --Taivo (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

No doubt, but with the in-article gallery thing with sources, one can make a stronger argument for including controversial figures based on prestige and depth of source coverage, because the sources are in the article. This kind of argument gets quickly lost when arguing on the talk page about unsourced inclusions in the infobox grids.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• KeepOppose removal If you have issue with one of the images, get consensus to change that one image. Ethnic looks are diverse, one image does not do the trick. Unless you are going to devise some ethnic test for Wikipedia, like South Africa's "one drop of blood" law or Germany's "1/8 Jewish or less" law, people have the right to self identify for their ethnicity and their sexual orientation. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), your comment seems to be arguing against Sandstein's addition. If so, I think that that using "Oppose" for your comment is better than using "Keep." Also take note that I did not have a problem with the result of the aforementioned discussion (other than it seeming to assert that WP:OR is the main issue). My issues with the matter are noted above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Note that Richard Arthur Norton responded with this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would think that the advice to avoid including any photo of a person of race/ethnicity/gender/whatever that is identifiable in these galleries should be avoided for reasons stated above (editors pushing to include a specific person of note), but I'm not sure if outright removal is needed. If you eliminate the use of notable persons, you are left with images to select from that are 1) free and 2) verified to be people that are part of that group, and then the choice should then become a matter of presentation of what are the best images of this combined set. Which while still a potential for editorial dispute will far less be a problem as when notable persons are involved. Obviously, in considering race and ethnicity, editors should strive to cover both genders and all ages with the available pictures, though there's no need to force a specific balance (50/50 male/female, 25/50/25 young/adult/senior etc) just as long as it looks good. --MASEM (t) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. In my experience these galleries end up being nothing more than "Look how wonderful our ethnicity is to have produced such marvellous people !!" They are breeding grounds for original research, improper synthesis, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Taivo, what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If you notice my comment is not at all restricted to galleries in the lead or the infobox. I said, "galleries [of people]" without restriction to where they occur in the article. Just because someone moved them from the top of the article to the middle or bottom doesn't negate any of my comments about them. As to whether this principle should extend beyond ethnicity articles, that matter was also addressed in the RfC when it was pointed out that "ethnicity" could not be narrowly construed since it was often impossible to distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. The very same problems with OR, SYNTH, and NPOV apply to other articles about groups of people. --Taivo (talk) 03:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, "race" or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well. I focused on the lead image aspect because the text in the guideline is currently about that, as a result of the consensus discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment, I believe images should only be used in the infoboxes for national groups (such as Americans, French people, Australlians etc.). This way anyone, no matter what original ethnic background(s), can be included. While it may be subjective as to who may be most notable to include in infoboxes, generally a consensus as to who may be included is often times more accurate than not. It is helpful to immediately see some prominent and historic figures (founding fathers, wealthest individual, most sold record labels etc.) as their inclusions should remain aribitrary. It is at a disservice to the reader, to reach a page of a certain national group and not to be able to immediately associate someone with that group to the name of the article. Savvyjack23 (talk) 14:01, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem with distinguishing ethnicity articles from nationality articles is that there is often no line between them, for example, is Ukrainians an ethnicity article or a nationality article? It's impossible to really distinguish between the two and endless discussions on the Talk Page revealed this utter confusion. The RfC clearly conflated ethnicity and nationality in the discussion. And the same issues of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV are relevant to nationality articles as they are to ethnicity articles. --Taivo (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Per Taivo and others. I´ve not participated much in these discussions myself, but read several, Americans (which dropped the gallery on it´s own before this), African Americans, Yemenite Jews, etc. There are always amazing, worthy (infamous, too) people left out and sooner or later this will be commented on again. And again. And again. And then there are the "That person would be insulted to be called that ethnicity" and "That ethnicity is insulted by being represented by that person." arguments. Gaaahhh. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I opened a thread here and suggested the elimination of the infobox gallery from Woman article. 64.62.219.165 (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - The consensus to remove the ethnic/race/nationality based galleries should be widened to include other specific human groups e.g., Christian. Those galleries are just meant for presentation rather than educational purposes. We need to deal with it once and for all. STSC (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose This sounds like people poushing their own politically correct ideas here instead of sticking with WP:NOTCENSORED. If you have a problem then go with Wikipedia policy such as verifiability rather than because it causes trouble on Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, STSC and Dmcq, liked I asked, Taivo, "what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved." I added, "My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, 'race' or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If it is not obvious to you from what I said above I disagree with the blanket removal of such composite images from any any type article on the basis of " because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious". Wikipedia has policies for dealing with OR and contentious is not a reason to remove anything as per WP:NOTCENSORED. Dmcq (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Dmcq. And, STSC, sorry about pinging you above to answer more so on topic; I see that you did by noting that you support the guideline being widened. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I hope that my answer was clear. I support extending the consensus to cover any group of humans, where galleries of famous people (or fictitious people) have been created in infoboxes. They are nothing but magnets for OR, SYNTH, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Flyer, I support broadening (from the rfc version) per the current text in the guideline: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per rationales already supplied by Taivo, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish, et al. I'm not going to reiterate the copious arguments I've presented on multiple articles and the RfC as to gratuitous galleries of notables. The White people, Man and Woman articles are testimonials as to the absurdism of such galleries. Head shots of 'notables', plus partial shots of statues and other artist's interpretations with allusions to boobs are readily accepted as representative... of what? Oh, but, while WP:NOTCENSORED has been invoked in arguments, it hasn't been invoked for this form of bizarre depiction of what constitutes some of the most obviously defining physical features that differentiate the female of the species from the male of the species (uh-oh, do I hear the rumblings of 'no naughty bits' coming on?). Shall we get our grand-kiddies to draw some pictures of men and women? All I've been able to establish from the "Man" and "Woman" infoboxes is that some women wear paint on their faces, and that men tend to have their hair short. Are we assuming that readers have only been on this planet long enough to figure out that we're not deer or elephants? Broaden the scope, please. [EDIT] While I've considered salient questions posed regarding whether or not it is OR since my !vote, in broader terms POV and distracting from the content of articles still stands (as evidenced in the "Man" and "Woman" articles). The use of galleries to depict examples of self-evident subject matters is antithetical to being encyclopaedic and getting to the point of the content of such articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Sandstein, per what SMcCandlish and I stated above about WP:Original research not being the main problem, do you mind either of us or someone else tweaking the wording in that respect? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
  • SMcCandlish can speak for himself, of course, but that's not how I read his remarks. My own remarks about OR were limited to the question of whether individuals could be documented to belong to a group (not usually a problem); however, I agree with the proposed wording that *selection* of individuals as being the most representative ones is definitely problematic with respect to original research. Given your filibustering here, I'm skeptical that your "tweaking" is likely to match the general sense of the discussion, so maybe it would be a better idea to be specific about the wording improvement you would like to make rather than asking for license to change the wording ad libitum. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Since SMcCandlish understands what I mean more often than not and we can have long, drawn out debates together while others will categorize our commentary as WP:Too long; didn't read, I would prefer that he speak for himself. There was no filibustering on my part. And I asked the question once (my "23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)" post above), and I indeed meant it as one of us proposing wording here at the talk page first. If people want to remove these galleries, I could not care less. But I do care about following consensus correctly and getting the wording right. I also care about not creating guidelines that people are not likely to follow. I made all of this clear above. And, indeed, people are already objecting to this guideline. SMcCandlish stated above, "I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes." I stated above, "I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/'race,' then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables." And that is what I mean. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

It's certainly a WP:POV issue when notables who are perceived to be notorious (i.e., Mussolini for the Italians gallery) are rejected based on the desire to only present those who are deemed to be positive, virtuous representatives of an ethnic group. As an addendum, why is Mother Teresa in the gallery of women in preference to Jiang Qing? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I clearly agree about the POV issues. Per what I stated here and here, I just don't view the WP:OR policy as some others here do. To me, it's like stating that putting together a collage or gallery of anything is WP:OR because of editor selection. And if that's the case, we might as well get rid of collages and galleries altogether. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

To be clear on this, Flyer22, are we still talking about infoboxes (or collages/galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes)? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I thought it was just about the matter of collages or galleries presented in infoboxes, but looking at this discussion and the one below it, I see that it's broader than that. From what I can tell, the current guideline is against any such presentation; so, yes, that's a no to "galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I definitely understood the aforementioned close to mean "no collages or galleries of people should be presented as a lead image for ethnicity/racial topics." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: I've thought on this over lunch - just don't ask me what I ate because I didn't pay attention - and it seems that it's being stretched to an unknown quantity decision. Ultimately, the "White people", "Woman", and the "Man" articles are COMMONSENSE arguments. Per WP:PERTINENCE, the galleries/collages (particularly using wikilinks to articles on notable people, works of art, etc.) detract from the content of the article rather than enhance it. A Google image search would yield a better cross-section of the subject (AKA WP:TITLE) of the article, therefore 'editorial discretion' (as has been invoked on the "Woman" article) is a non-argument for any editor du jour picking out their own selection of images peripheral to the substance of the article.

As to how far this should extend, and whether wires have been crossed regarding the intent in the heat of the interpretation/misinterpretation of where we're actually up to, doesn't really seem to have been established. I'm developing another Wikipedia-induced migraine. Let's see whether it doesn't become a little more focussed once the initial backlash has died down a bit. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

In reply to Flyer22 Reborn above, I agree with what David Eppstein wrote.  Sandstein  08:05, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Since twice requested to speak for myself on this: I don't agree that OR is less of a problem than POV when it comes to these things. It's a less frequent issue, but often a more severe one, leading to more protracted debate, so it evens out. Analogy: If I have eight broken fingers and one broken leg, I shouldn't seek treatment only for the fingers.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, SMcCandlish (I keep WP:Pinging you because I'm not sure this page is on your watchlist), I am also open to the adjustments you mentioned (seen here and here) in your post above. In other words, I am open you proposing new wording, especially since you commonly work on improving policies and guidelines. Why I don't like the current wording is made explicitly clear above; I cannot agree with the interpretation of the WP:OR policy that I am seeing here, and this is because I don't see it supported anywhere in that policy. What I see when I look at that policy is a policy based on the WP:Verifiability policy. Another thing that I noted above is that the word similarly can be interpreted in different ways; I'm certain that there will be people arguing that similarly in this case does not apply as broadly as Sandstein intended, especially since the consensus discussion he linked to pertains to ethnicity/racial issues. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind if the guideline states that WP:OR can be an issue in the case of these galleries or collages (I've seen ethnicity/racial matters be a WP:OR issue via interpretation); I mind it acting like WP:OR is more commonly the issue or is the prime issue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Removal with knobs on WP:IAR is supposedly a pillar of wikipedia and wikipedia is supposed to be not WP:NOTCENSORED. You'll never eliminate controversy over what material to include on wikipedia as its written by human beings and they'll always find something to fight about; however stupid. More and more rules to eliminate areas of controversy will just move the problem around. So a bunch of you with a common pet peeve got together and made a new rule and are now proceeding to run round wikipedia deleting content, chanting "we've got a consensus to do this", well to be frank, you're no better than those who'd argue ad nauseum that Mariah Carey absolutely must be in a gallery. WCM_email 00:51, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - My earlier comments did not specify a vote, so I’ll clarify here that I support the broad wording of this policy. Where images are used to show characteristics of a group, they should be tightly circumspect and strictly sourced; galleries tend to be neither. It doesn’t seem to me to matter whether the primary problem is OR or POV; as I illustrated above, the two often go together. Bottom line, these galleries add little educational value while breeding endless and unnecessary conflict. Better to provide a tool to remove them entirely, while putting the onus on development of the page to demonstrate the notability of members of the group. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 01:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support removal for many of the same reasons given above and because I think it's going to be hard(er) to implement this kind of thing unless it's done across the board for all such infoboxes, such as the ones for religious groups like Christian, British Jews, Maronites, Antiochian Greek Christians, Mormons, etc. Such articles are subject to same problems discussed in the RfC that led to WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES and it should make no difference whether the article uses {{infobox ethnic group}}, {{infobox religious group}} or {{infobox any other type of group}} at all. I also think wording should be added which specifically refers to user-created single-file montages like File:Greatest Chrisitans.jpg being used in "Christian". Images should be incorporated into the article itself in places where they are contextually relevant. There are 72 people pictured in the infobox for "Christians" and I couldn't find a single one that was mentioned elsewhere in the article. That kind of thing seems strange to me, but it also unfortunately seems to be more of the norm when it comes to such galleries. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broad interpretation. Other "people group" articles will be prone to identical or similar problems as pure "ethnic group" articles: inclusion criteria (person NN growing up as a citizen of nation A, becoming famous for something as a citizen of nation B and then living most of her life in retirement as a citizen of nation C, or person MM living all his life in state D, but outside what are the current borders of said state), selection criteria (OR and POV) and problems of representativeness (are famous persons of group X really typical for the group?). In addition, the borderline between the types of articles is fuzzy: Some articles are covering both ethnicity and citizenship, others are focussing on one or the other.

Another thing: This edit summary suggests that the text would have to cover "in or in connection with the infobox". --T*U (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I believe the arguments made at the RfC that Sandstein closed support a broad interpretation; there is no logical reason (IMO) to not apply this concept more broadly. The same discussions about what constitute an ethnicity apply to, for instance, religion as well (I just made the edit to Christian) and, of course, the potential for disagreement and bickering is the same. As for OR--it simply is not always clear what "makes" someone a Christian, but I don't wish to be for this the main point. Note that the image on Christian, for instance, contained 63 images: clearly someone went through a lot of trouble trying to be inclusive (I found a Mormon in there, but not an Old Catholic--I may have missed some, of course), but it's never going to be enough. A broad interpretation is the way to go. Drmies (talk) 19:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support removal of inbox galleries per above. I've always thought these were arbitrary, unhelpful, and downright strange. The sooner we get rid of these the better. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Bloodofox, we agree on something! This calls for coffee and cake. Drmies (talk) 15:38, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
    • Cheers! :) :bloodofox: (talk) 20:06, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support per Drmies, RGloucester — ☎ 22:09, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - In my experience, they're just an endless source of edit warring, and taking collective credit for the achievement of individuals is rather iffy. If someone wants such lists, I guess we have categories for that. Question is, what should replace them? FunkMonk (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I suspect that the questions are what they are supposed to represent; whether they enhance the understanding of the subject; whether readers need images to inform them of what "Man", "Woman", "White people" refers to. Do readers not understand such concepts? Do they need diagrams and gratuitous galleries to better inform them of what the TITLE refers to, or are infoboxes not adequate on their own, and are editors so paranoid that the reader may not understand who or what the subject of the article refers to that they need to throw images together so as their own linear reading of a concept might not be mistaken for a post-modernist reinvention? How many of these articles aren't best served by the text in any given infobox? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Nothing" is the easy answer. Other current solutions can be seen at Americans, Christian and Human. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:50, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

We can have some fun talk page conversations on the topic. The image for Humans is just awesome, absolutely stunning in its simplicity. The image for Americans, meh--it's a bit simple and graphic. We'll be looking for iconic images, like Ellis Island or something like that. Or we can have a gallery, haha--with Ellis Island, the Middle Passage, Beringia, Donald Trump... Drmies (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Nothing" may very well end up being the default for most pages. I tried a nice image of modern Ukrainians here, but another editor rather strongly objected because he never sees anyone who looks like that where he lives. So I removed it. --Taivo (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

That was a good decision and I thank you for it. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't actually see the compulsion to add an image because there is an image parameter as being 'perfectly' (or even 'well') fulfilled simply because it is perceived to be somehow unexpected or 'different' to what may be construed as the obvious to native English language speakers as being a good solution. Unless we are catering to a different species, readers will already understand what a human is. Using an image for Muskrat is informative in as much as readers looking up a species can immediately understand what that species looks like. As a reader, I have no idea of whether the muskrat depicted is considered to be the stuff of 'pin-up gorgeous' to other muskrats; whether it is male or female; whether the colour of its coat is typical or atypical of preconceived notions of muskrats to any demographic of (human) readers in the know, but I am provided an immediate visual reference in order to establish that it is not an invertebrate, an insect, etc. As we are catering to humans over the age of 3 or 4 yo, human is a concept already familiar to said reader. (I'd also be reticent to give away too much to extraterrestrial beings planning to take over the world!) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the Americans article first, I see that there are currently galleries lower in the article. I know that this current guideline dispute pertains to lead images, but I don't see how having such galleries lower are better than having them as a lead image; I assume that the same disputes will arise from that approach. As for what benefit such galleries can provide... Well, in the case of the African Americans article, it was commonly considered that showing the physical diversity of that community was educational. For example, there are people who look like Mariah Carey (color-wise, and hair-wise in some cases) who identify as African American. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. I read nothing in the OR and NPOV policies that applies to the selection of images to use in an article. I've never seen any image accompanied by a reliably sourced reference citation to support its inclusion in an article. The policy that applies is the image use policy, which covers the use of montages and galleries. There is nothing on the talk page of that policy that reflects any consensus to change that policy, so the careful wording of this guideline is necessary so that it does not go against the IUP. I weakly support the consensus garnered in regard to ethnic groups; however, the wider application of that consensus is as yet unwarranted and not fully supported. The selection of which images to use in an article, whether it be individual images, a gallery of images or a montage has always been by editorial evaluation for individual articles. I see no reason to tell editors that their deliberations about which images to include/exclude must now be dictated by guideline or policy. Such things should continue to be adjudged on an individual-article basis. Happy New Year! Paine  17:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
  • That policy dictates what kinds of images are and are not allowed on Wikipedia on formal grounds. There is no reason to assume that NPOV somehow does not apply to images, even if it says "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view" (my italics); that somehow images can be non-neutral flies in the face of common sense. OR certainly applies to images--for instance, we cannot draw conclusions in text from images, and essentially that's what those galleries do, by implying/signalling that those images somehow represent. TaivoLinguist just pointed to a discussion (Talk:Ukrainians#Photo_gallery_removed_per_Wikipedia-wide_consensus) where this is highly relevant. Drmies (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

• Then please show in the OR or NPOV policy where the selection of images requires a reliably sourced reference citation. Then please show where any image on Wikipedia has been selected for use in any article, and the selection has an accompanying reference citation. I'm so sorry, but editors are misapplying those policies, which have absolutely nothing to do with the selection of images for an article. Such selections have always been within the purview of individual article editorial discussion and consensus, and that should not be changed.  Paine  18:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

You don't understand, Paine. Inevitably, we cannot post pictures of every woman in existence. Any selection made for this gallery will be coloured by the point-of-view of those doing the selecting, and cannot claim to represent "women" as a category. Wikipedia editors do not get to determine what the "average" woman looks like, or who should represent women as a group. Because the process of selection is so laden with individual opinion, it cannot be said to be in line with our policy on neutral point-of-view, and requires prohibited original research. It is misleading to the reader, does not educate the reader in any way, and only serves to compromise the neutrality of the encylopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 21:47, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I keep hearing all that about violation of original research and neutral point of view, and yet nobody seems to be able to show me in those policies precisely where the choosing of images requires reliably sourced reference citations, so bottom line is that those policies do not apply to the selection of article images. Said selection must then be up to the custodial editors of individual articles, or failing that, the image selection would be up to whatever dispute resolution process is encouraged. As an aside, we appear to be in violation of WP:MULTI, because an editor decided to open a thread on this very subject at Talk:Woman. One of these discussions should undergo a procedural close and thread merge, isn't that correct?  Paine  22:05, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Custodial editors"? I'm sorry, Paine Ellsworth, but I've never heard of any form of policy or guideline even inferring that any editors earn the right to 'custody' of any article in Wikipedia. I'm highly aware of WP:OWN as something that is rightly frowned upon. If I were to start working on the "Woman" article regularly for the next few months, would I become one of that elite group you would consider to be a 'custodian' of the article... or would it take longer? Six months? A year. At precisely what point did you and a couple of other editors become 'custodians' of any articles, and what other privileges does this brand of ownership afford you? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Iryna, that is explained admirably in that link of which you are highly aware under "stewardship", which is perhaps the word I should have used instead of "custodial". Custodian was meant here moreso in partnership with "janitor". One does not have to be an admin to be one of those, correct? (rhet.) Happy New Year! Paine  17:25, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - An editor choosing an image or images they believe best illustrate something is not WP:OR, or we wouldn't have images at all. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
• Moderate oppose as too vague - The added wording of "similarly large human populations" is too vague and easily gamed. Specify categories if you wish to expand this further (would gender, sex, age, historical period, sexual orientation, tribes, occupations, etc. be included?). If you wish to ban all photo collages, do that instead. (PS - I am okay with the outcome of the rfc regarding ethnic groups and rather agree with it in that specific case). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 09:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Your proposed wording in the following section certainly goes a long way to eliminating the vagueness. --Taivo (talk) 16:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broad interpretation, reasons are exactly same as with ethnic groups.--Staberinde (talk) 13:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support to end endless and unnecessary EW on this practice which adds virtually nothing to the encyclopedia. I also support this because it cures any possible technical defects arising out of the original RFC. There is a case which can be made under the CONLIMITED policy that decisions at wikiprojects cannot create policy or guidelines unless they specifically say that they're doing that and are adequately publicized (e.g. via the Village Pump and Centralized Discussion). That may have been done in this case, but there's no clear-and-easy way to see that it was. Since there was no clear intent in the original RFC to say that it was for the purpose of making policy, it could have merely been for the purpose of setting the standards for that wikiproject which are not binding on the rest of the encyclopedia. By also adding it here, however, that problem is solved, especially when this RFC confirms it. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
  • @TransporterMan: Are the listing of the RfC and the announcement at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion a sufficiently "clear-and-easy way to see that it was" for you? --RexxS (talk) 03:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose after seeing what happened as a result of the previous RFC where articles have been degraded, with illustrations totally stripped, a local consensus for each page should determine what happens, as for many pages there is no controversy. Our aim is not to keep peace between editors, but to assist our readers. This proposal is against the purpose of Wikipedia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett: Could you qualify what you mean when you say that the quality has been 'degraded'. In what way have they been degraded. I'd be interested if you could pick out a couple of the articles you believe to have become less 'informative' and in what manner the reader has been deprived of information. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frisians&oldid=697014025 to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frisians&oldid=698825933. In the version with the gallery you could see at a glance that the article was about a group of people. Now you have to read the text first. You can see from the edit history that removing the gallery has been very controversial, compared to a lack of warring over any content. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarians_in_France&oldid=687933368 versus https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarians_in_France&oldid=698964497 so now the article is illustrated by a slightly misleading coat of arms of Bulgaria, instead of people. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

"You could see at a glance that the article was about a group of people". No, you could see at a glance that the article was about specific people, not an ethnic group. Most of the images were of people who lived before the 20th century and were all men. So the article was about a bunch of long-dead men and a pretty modern woman. That's not a representative gallery of "Frisians". It's a POV pushing assertion of fame and fortune, which, by the selection of images, must have ceased before the 20th century. --Taivo (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately you pointed to two examples of what is not representative of an ethnic group, or an ethnic group in the diaspora... but representative of a mixture of 'notables' according to what a handful (sometimes less) of editors agree to be POV preferences for notables. Per WP:TITLE, these articles are about an ethnic group, or an ethnic group in the diaspora. If the TITLE were "Notable Frisians" or "Notable Bulgarians in France" there may be something to consider. That is not the case, therefore how are notables representative of an entire ethnic group, its history, and its culture? The fact that you, personally, consider them to be meaningful and edifying for the reader is WP:PPOV. Their 'notability' alone places them above and beyond the majority of the ethnic group. Decorative ≠ informative. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose any and all assertions of political correctness as a legitimate Wikipedia principle, regardless of precedent, until I see an unambiguous statement from WMF saying that Wikipedia should be politically correct. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:54, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The assertion that this has anything to do with "political correctness" is utterly absurd. It has everything to do with violating the solid Wikipedia principles of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV. Your assertion of "political correctness" itself is a violation of WP:AGF. --Taivo (talk) 21:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

If what you say were true, you would be making the same argument regarding the images in articles about painters, for just one example. Original research has been committed in the choice of images in Renoir. Who are we to say that that subset of his work is representative of his work? Should we remove all such images because there is widespread disagreement about which ones to include? I think not. The fact that you selectively apply your reasoning to areas involving the hot-button social issues of the day points to a desire for political correctness, whether you would use that term or not. You are misapplying WP:AGF. I am not violating AGF because I don't doubt your sincerity in this matter. One can be simultaneously sincere and wrong, and, in my opinion, you are. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The assertion is not absurd at all as the earlier RFC and the mention of discussion at African Americans very much sounds of political correctness. However we don't have to await WMF proclamations, and people here can work out how we behave, and how offended people are allowed to be. This sounds more to me like a power grab with the general overriding the specific. Imposing uniformity where there should be diversity. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Neither of your complaints (they are not reasoned arguments), address the primary issue--that these galleries are violations of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV in the way that images are selected and rejected in these galleries. Indeed, neither of your posts are anything more than "I don't like it". --Taivo (talk) 22:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The choices of images are not, nor have they ever been since they first began being used as illustrations of examples, original research in any way shape or form to include synthesis of published material, nor can they possibly be construed as in violation of neutral point of view. I don't see how anyone could possibly draw this conclusion if they have actually read those policies with understanding. Both OR and NPOV require the application of reliable, verifiable sources to ensure that any item in question is not original research nor non-neutral point of view. I ask you again, and I will continue to ask until someone can come up with an example, show us one image, just one image that exhibits a reference citation to a reliable source for the express purpose of the selection of that image for use in any article on this encyclopedia. If you cannot find one, then it is preposterous to continue to power push that faulty agenda as "the primary issue". Selection of images is by no means original research nor is it in violation of neutral point of view. Selection of images has always been within the purview of editorial discretion and consensus on an individual-article basis. I resent that the removal of such discretion is being jammed down editors' throats with dubious arguments and statements like Indeed, neither of your posts are anything more than "I don't like it". It's the use of questionable arguments that sounds more like IDLI to me.  Paine  10:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Don't really buy the original research angle, but I do think a broad interpretation is the way to go. Many of the same problems with the ethnic articles exist within these other galleries. AIRcorn (talk) 07:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. Some editors have told some of us who oppose this proposition that we "don't understand" or we "don't get it". I'll tell you what I don't understand. We have heard it said that "a picture is worth a thousand words." So why are editors here who support this proposition trying so hard to make Wikipedia so much less interesting and informative? What is really behind this attempt to circumvent the traditional article-by-article editorial consensus where the selection of images is concerned?  Paine  11:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I also just had a thought as to how "sweeping" this general concept of taking away editorial discretions might become? We've begun by taking it away in articles about ethnic groups; this discussion is about taking it away from more general articles about groups of people; why stop there with montages? Eventually, we can remove all the scientists names from all the science templates because, according to the logic of these RfC's, the selection of those scientists for inclusion in those templates is clearly a violation of OR and NPOV, correct? To heck with the fact that the present selections of those names (as well as the selections of images in articles) is the culmination of up to 15 years of editors adding, subtracting, discussing and coming to consensus on the talk pages of those articles and templates. I do hope editors will give this idea, which removes years of work from articles, a lot more thought.  Paine  16:16, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

We don't deny the educational value of images, we don't suppress the right to choose the images and we don't censor the images chosen. The main point is the manner in which these images are used to illustrate information. Simply, to put a collection of images in a gallery to illustrate a single piece of information is unnecessary. STSC (talk) 16:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Except as noted above, this has been used to justify the removal of images that were informative - Japanese people for example. Its been seen as blanket justification to remove images on a number of articles; whether it is an improvement or not (mostly not). As predicted it has resulted in wikidrama on pages where there was none before. WCM_email 18:10, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

As with all changes to articles, there is a certain amount of wikidrama from the "old-timers". This is typical and is nothing unusual or unique to this change. It will subside once editors get used to the new format. To argue that as a reason for not changing the policy is simply another translation of WP:IDLI. --Taivo (talk) 18:33, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

More likely it'll subside when yet more editors leave wikipedia as they realise people who actually contribute content are less valued than those who think that enforcing petty rules is overbearingly important. I always point to Wikipedia:YOUDONTLIKEIT in response to asinine comments about WP:IDLI. Not once has anyone questioned whether articles are going to be improved or not, so far the evidence learns more to not. WCM_email 20:31, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The main point is the manner in which these images are used to illustrate information. Simply, to put a collection of images in a gallery to illustrate a single piece of information is unnecessary.

Very well, if that is indeed the "main point", then explain to me please what is wrong with using images that are representative examples of the subject matter in articles. That's all they are, you know, "examples". None are "more representative" than others as some here would set forth. And why would you think that the selection of representative examples of images, examples that have been discussed, deliberated and that have received consensus over up to 15 years of the existence of this project, "is unnecessary"? It's part of what sets this encyclopedia apart and makes it more attractive to our readers!  Paine  10:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

This is a classic use of exaggeration for the purpose of making an argument. Your continued reference to images of objects or specific events in articles is irrelevant to the discussion of choosing a selection of individuals, almost always famous and positive role models, to illustrate a particular large group of people. Using your POV and using OR and SYNTH to select which 15 people are good examples to illustrate X people is a different matter from selecting which photograph of a WWI trench in France is most illustrative. And your "15 years" to build a person gallery is laughable. I've been on Wikipedia for nearly 10 years and the proliferation of photo galleries of the rich and famous is much more recent than the founding of Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

This is a classic use of exaggeration for the purpose of making an argument. Your continued reference to images of objects or specific events in articles is irrelevant to the discussion of choosing a selection of individuals

Please show where I've referred to images of objects or specific events in this discussion. I have continued to speak to the selection of images of people in montages, people in galleries or individual images of people. The only departure I've made is to make the analogy of the selection of scientists' names in science templates.

almost always famous and positive role models

Odd that you think this should matter in the course of the selection of images for an article's montage. The examples chosen – yes, in some cases over several years of deliberation on the talk page – also happen to be notable subjects with their own articles to which to link.

Using your POV and using OR and SYNTH to select which 15 people are good examples to illustrate X people

Using "my" POV??? Editors use their rationales and !votes on the talk pages of articles to select which 15 or so people are EXAMPLES – not "good examples", not more representative – just representative illustrations, merely pictorial examples of the subject matter. Your "POV, OR and SYNTH" violations are actually guarded against by the use of discussion, deliberation and consensus on the individual articles' talk pages.

is a different matter from selecting which photograph of a WWI trench in France is most illustrative.

Where do you come up with this stuff. Never said that anywhere in this discussion. Your arguments are not only faulty logic, they seem to be quite irrelevant and non-descriptive of what people actually say.

And your "15 years" to build a person gallery is laughable.

Editors have spent many, many years in discussions, deliberations and in garnering consensus as to which examples to use as images in articles. The amount of time, whether it be 7 years, 15 years or 25 years, is irrelevant. It's been many years of editorial discretion on the talk pages of individual articles to get them where they are today, and you would have all that erased to satisfy what exactly? Is it your supreme goal to make Wikipedia look more staid and colorless like many printed encyclopedias? That's how you're coming across, TaivoLinguist!  Paine  15:44, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Your long discourse notwithstanding, you still fail to shift your argument from "But we've worked so hard" to anything of merit in addressing the fundamental POV and OR required to assemble collections of photos of the rich and famous (and almost always good role models) to illustrate your particular view of what constitutes "womanhood" or "Jewishness" or "Frenchness". The only argument that you have ever raised, despite the application of much bandwidth, is I don't like it. Your peculiar interpretation of OR has been roundly rejected. Your peculiar interpretation of POV ("group POV is OK") has also been rejected. And whether a gallery of people pictures is a day old or a decade old, it's still OR and POV. --Taivo (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not too surprised at your lack of understanding since you don't even read my posts. What is it? Are my responses tl;dr for you to actually read them and respond to them in kind? I don't shift my argument because it does not need to be shifted. You do not shift your argument from the crap about POV and OR, so I try to be specific in my responses to you by quotes of your tired and faulty logic. OR and POV have absolutely nothing to do with this particular discourse we are enjoying. You say the selection of images in people articles is OR and violates NPOV as well. I say that is well taken care of by editors on the talk pages of the individual people articles. It is you who don't like the montages and are out to get them. So the previous RfC was started by a now-blocked sockpuppet. Does anybody else wonder how many other sock puppets might be involved in that discussion, and this one as well, stacking !votes and rationales? Is anyone else concerned about that? Maybe we should open an investigation into the use of sock puppets in these RfC's?  Paine  23:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I completely understand your arguments and read every word of them. But just because you are capable of forming complete, syntactically correct sentences, and have mastered English spelling (a skill that fewer and fewer people these days can claim), doesn't make your points any more convincing or valid. You have simply not convinced a majority of editors that either your "I don't like it" or your "we've always done it that way" arguments are valid for encyclopedic content. Just because you and a couple of other editors can agree to a particular set of famous role models who shed a positive light on the topic doesn't mean that it is not OR or POV. It is really a measure of your failure to marshal a convincing argument when you turn to blaming sock puppets for your failed arguments. --Taivo (talk) 23:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Paine Ellsworth: Personally, I'm not concerned as to whether it was started by a sock, or whether socks have cropped up for either side of the RfC as the majority of editors involved in both RfCs are regulars (including admins). As you know, the number of !votes is immaterial: when we have such a vast number of editors involved it is the calibre of the arguments based on policy and guidelines that count. Your concerns are starting to read as 'sour grapes'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I almost didn't include that part for the very reason you suggest. I went ahead and struck that out about the sock puppets. I'm certain, of course, that you are not one, and yet I'm not so sure about some other editors in these discussions whom I do not know. Consider it dropped.  Paine  23:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broadest possible definition of "people group"; similar to the philosophy behind the well known aphorism "A language is a dialect with an army and navy", terms like "ethnicity", "race", "nationality", "cultural group", etc. are ill defined in the sense that the difference between an "ethnicity" and a "nationality" and a "race" does not have clear, bright line boundaries. It's quite clear that the only concept that works for all such groupings is "people groups", whether one is talking about French Americans, the Hmong people, Black people, Georgians, Arabs, the Sikh, or any other grouping of people, there is no compelling reason to put forth a gallery of "representative examples" of those people, and such galleries merely attract edit warring, original research, and are fairly useless in that one cannot represent the entire group with a limited subset of 9-12 members of said group. No article on any cultural classification of humanity should have a gallery of representative examples. --Jayron32 03:05, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose removal. Imagery should be a pertinent part of a page's introductory section whenever possible. Not doing so degrades the general appeal of the page, turning away the more superficial or casual readership. That 9 or 12 personages don't represent the whole is quite obvious, so? It's such a commonplace to use a subset to refer to the whole, a kind of Pars pro toto. And when it comes to disagreements about a specific selection, instead of starting endless wars, wait a couple of weeks and then change it. It's a jolly feature to have an ever changing collage, where everybody respect others' choices for at least 15 days. Moreover, I suggest to temporarily block people engaging in such spurious quarrels: theirs is a futile nuisance. Where I am less convinced is the use of sets of extraordinary people. Pages about ethnic groups should emphasize in their collage the different physical aspects of that group (male, female, young, adult, old, different color nuances) or the different culturally distinct subgroups pertaining, for instance, to the dress code, or to any other visual aspect. As per the alleged suspicion of OR or POV, we have to be logically consistent and ban not only galleries but also the entire page, or, even better, the entire Wikipedia: whenever we put together a sentence we are doing an OR or POV of sort. So, let not be ridiculous. A much more important point of discussion is how we manage these ethnic pages. I am referring in particular to White people, but I suppose it relates also to other analogous pages. In times where ethnic affiliation is more of a personal, culturally driven, choice than an imposed physical tag, these pages should be reflecting more clearly how different, and often vague, has become the concept of ethnic belonging. Carlotm (talk) 11:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support inclusion of "similarly large human populations", like men and women. But, on the other hand, I think that the explanation that such images are "original research" should be removed from the page. By that logic, any image represents an original research (for example, if we have several photos of Barak Obama, it is original research to choose one of them). The reason for removing such galleries in not the WP:OR, but the fact that those are simply useless and irrelevant. Images of notable individuals are not suitable for illustrating group identity, regardless of what kind of group identity it is (ethnic, religious, linguistic, sexual, ....). Vanjagenije (talk) 11:43, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
• Qualified oppose with regard to prohibiting such galleries with regard to both articles on ethnic groups and those on "other large populations". Not withstanding the rancor that has sometimes surrounded such galleries in the past, this is surely a matter for WP:Local consensus based on the sources available to the editors of the individual articles with regard to the people who are proposed for inclusion in any such gallery. That is, if sources unambigously establish WP:WEIGHT for the notion that an individual is a member of a given race or ethnicity such that we could include that detail in their biography, I see no reason why they could not be added also to any montage on an article concerning that same group--nor have I seen any compelling policy argument here for why WP:V/WP:NPOV should be overruled in the class of circumstances being discussed here. In any even, this is surely not a "one size fits all" kind of issue and I don't see this as a matter of style so much as a deeper content and sourcing issue, so establishing language to the suggested effect in MoS is only going to cause further discord when other editors inevitably point out that it conflicts with the reading of much more central compelling policies and guidelines. At the very least, this needs to be discussed in a central community discussion space (WP:CD or WP:VPP) and the changes vetted for inclusion in the relevant policy pages, not just our style guide. But I rather suspect that this is doomed to be a perpetual "no consensus" issue when approached via broad community input. But again, I'm not sure that a blanket rule is called for here in any event.

On a side note, I also can't see what the problem would be with allowing editors to choose to include only less contentious members of a given group; the purpose of these visual galleries are to represent the superficial phenotypes/physical characteristics of a given people, not to make suggestions about their collective moral character and social values (that most assuredly would be OR of a deeply problematic source). So choosing to exclude Hitler while including other famous individuals who do not introduce prejudice into the representation of a group just does not arouse any kind of neutrality concern in me; honestly, even if certain editors did make efforts to create a "best of" representation for their race, who cares, so long as they keep discussion civil, to the point, and predicated on sources which unambiguously identify certain individuals as members of a given group? Arguing that neutrality requires us to exercise editorial control in order to prevent our representation of a given people from appearing "too dignified", "too respectable" or "too noble" seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Every race has such people in abundance, so why wouldn't we allow them to be featured prominently? Indeed, the only reason we can't do the same with notorious/unsavory individuals is that they would understandably be seen as those editors working in the area of their heritage as likely to engender bias. Personally, having a bit of a background in human genetic diversity, I find ethnic pride/prejudice to be an outdated, irrational, and small-minded notion and would have no problem with including both monstrous and saintly individuals from my own immediate genetic heritage without feeling it said anything significant about me, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same (and anyway, I'd fear confirmation bias in those reading our articles who have racist notions with regard to the "evils" of certain ethnicities). But allowing people to put the "best face" on their ethnicity is not an equivalent neutrality issue, as I see it. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support ending the practice of infobox and other lead galleries for ethnic groups or similarly large human populations.
  • Infoboxes and leads briefly summarise key points from the article. Instead, these galleries are long illustrated lists of notable people, with captions that take up nearly as much room as the images, or even more (see previous French people). The indistinct and unrepresentative images fail as illustration - see the tiny icons and distant bearded men of the old Albanians.
  • It's been suggested we can leave it to local consensus, but that's exactly what's failed. Leaving it to local consensus merely leads to expansion as the only compromise available and draws editors into conflict only to deliver a degraded experience to the reader.
  • It's been suggested that that this would breach WP:IAR and WP:NOTCENSORED. The fifth pillar of Wikipedia does not require that there be no rules, and this is not about galleries of genitalia. It is a matter of WP:PERTINENCE. NebY (talk) 18:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - simply lead clutter with no real value for merit for leads. -- Moxy (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

*Weak Oppose to removal. Because very many groups have articles and do have galleries of images, removal of the galleries will be disruptive. I would Weakly support a rule that galleries should only be permitted after a local RFC, which would permit articles to keep their existing galleries. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support: The purpose of adding images to an article is to better inform the reader than could be done by text alone, and it follows that images that do not further the understanding of an article should not be used. In any part of an article, galleries of images of people that have been selected by an editor to be a representative sample of a large group will all too often be merely decorative; there is hardly ever any means of objectively creating a usefully representative sample. Such a process which cannot be related to absolute criteria will inevitably lead to arguments over which people to include. The disadvantages of such galleries in their potential to mislead readers and waste editor time in arguments massively outweigh any possible advantage. The best way to avoid disputes on every page is to reject the notion of "local consensus" and provide clear guidance not to use image galleries in the circumstances envisioned in this RfC. --RexxS (talk) 04:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose removing Montage/Gallery option from MOS: Images that show a range of diversity are appropriate. We do so all the time in articles on animals (examples Equus (genus), cities (Missoula, Montana) and so on. Choosing ANY image over any other implies a certain degree of editorial discretion and is inherent in having images at all. A gallery or montage with a cross-section of individuals is less OR or SYNTH than a single image might be. Montanabw^(talk)|GO THUNDER! 04:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that these galleries in the vast majority of cases are not representative in any real sense of the word, but are simply showcases of famous people who happen to be members of that group. Famous people are hardly representative of anything except people who have had incredibly lucky circumstances. --Taivo (talk) 09:05, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - Recommend speedy close as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Proposal_for_the_deletion_of_all_the_galleries_of_personalities_from_the_infoboxes_of_articles_about_ethnic_groups Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support: nine out of ten times the choice of images(being in itself 100% WP:OR) is highly contentious and creates disruption in the project. If we forgo a merely decorative feature of the project which is against one of basic policies and in return we get stability in our articles, I can think of no better trade off. Furthermore there are some editors who are not able to use English very well, some who do not understand editing policies very well and some others who just want to pick fights, all of these editors will cause disruption throughout the project with their arguments being "Show me exactly where the word ""religious population"" is used in the policy page", "Show me exactly where the words ""Muslim Population"" are used in policy page", "Show me exactly where the words "Population of USA"" are used in the policy page". This kind of broad approach is the only way to fight these troll-ish editors who are either incompetent due to the language barrier or who are just waiting to have their fun. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:48, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion for RfC

There seems to be a fair amount of support for this so I'd like to start discussion on possible scope or rewording in the event this does get implemented. My primary opposition is that similarly large human populations is too vague and I would love to see this more clearly defined or reworded. MOS is a guideline, but a widely followed one and as such we need to make sure it is as clear as possible. Might I suggest something along the lines of

"Articles about large broad human categorizations (e.g., ethnic groups, sexes, genders, nationalities, etc.) should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, based on editors' point of view, and often is contentious."

I'm open to suggestions, but this was my stab at it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That certainly eliminates the vagueness which would allow "New York City" to be classed as a "similarly large human population". In addition to the note about OR, I think that including POV would also be appropriate. --Taivo (talk) 06:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording a bit more. Used broad instead of large. Added POV. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 08:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Please note that the following discussion by User:Paine Ellsworth and User:Wee Curry Monster has nothing to do with the wording of the proposed policy and is an attempt to argue against the policy outside the discussion above. --Taivo (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. I (still) don't think the above boldface note is consistent with the talk page guideline, because my post just below has everything to do with the wording set forth by EvergreenFir. Nor should the bold note be taken seriously by anyone who reads EvergreenFir's proposal and my response. I humbly suggest that the bold note be removed by its author or redacted by someone else. I'm not sure how harmful it is, but I'm reasonably sure that it will fool no one and will not help the author's arguments. It seems highly non-neutral to me. I could be wrong.  Paine  23:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Look at what you wrote. Had you written, "I don't think that it's been proven that OR and NPOV are relevant here so they shouldn't be mentioned in the policy statement", your comment is fine. But that's not what you wrote. You wrote, "Since OR and NPOV haven't been proven your argument fails and I disagree with this whole RfC." It's not a comment to improve a policy statement, it's an argument against the whole RfC. That's why it's disruptive in this section, which is about crafting a policy statement if consensus is judged to support the RfC. --Taivo (talk) 23:51, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm – it sounds to me as if you are being a bit picky about my wording, but I'll give you that one since I'm being "picky" about EF's wording. Perhaps, then, we can go on from here with the understanding that I don't mean to be disruptive, just thorough in my opposition to the use of OR and NPOV in the wording?  Paine  00:07, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The argument that selection of images is OR and NPOV is thus far insupportable since nobody has shown even one example where the selection of an image is accompanied by a reference citation to a reliable, verifiable source. Until someone provides such an example, then we have to leave out the part about OR and NPOV, and if those are omitted, then there isn't much of an argument left to support ditching the many-years-old tradition to leave image selection up to editors and consensus on an individual-article basis.  Paine  10:34, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

If you want to argue about whether OR or NPOV applies to this issue, then this isn't the section to make such arguments. This section has been set up in anticipation of a consensus to broaden the definition of galleries so that it can be implemented quickly and efficiently. If you want to argue about whether to expand the definition or not, the section to make that argument is above. Please don't clutter this section with your arguments against expanding the definition. --Taivo (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Why? In a request for comment, that makes zero sense! OR and NPOV clearly doesn't apply, since you can find a reliable citation to demonstrate any individual is a member of a group. The only reason this is being pushed through that actually stands up to scrutiny is that people are concerned about the endless arguments and wikidrama that occurs on some articles. For that reason alone people are prepared to ditch the pillar of WP:IAR and make a rule that will be enforced rigidly on all articles, whether there was conflict before or not, whether removal is to the articles detriment or not. Image selection should be up to editors and consensus on an individual article basis. I realise the futility in arguing against this as so many seem hell bent on imposing it but do yourselves a favour and stop kidding yourselves that OR is involved here, it isn't. WCM_email 16:56, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Please do not hijack this section -- on the possible wording of the policy -- with comments that belong in the section above. The discussion above on whether to institute this policy is currently running about 2-1 in support. Attempting to divert this discussion on the potential wording of that policy truly smacks of "I don't like it." These comments by Paine Ellsworth and Wee Curry Monster should be moved into the section above. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:TPG do not refactor other people's comments. Both comments were about the wording and the reference to WP:OR and WP:NPOV. WCM_email 18:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

No, they are not about the wording, they are arguments about the main discussion and attempts to push your anti-RfC POV here. They are not attempts to improve the wording of the final policy, but attempts to push your point that you oppose the policy at its core. You need to reread WP:TPG because I have neither edited nor deleted your comments--just placed your argument in the correct place. --Taivo (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Nope, they are precisely about reference to WP:OR in the proposed wording. By moving you are editing my comments as they're no longer in context. Please stop. WCM_email 18:35, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Making baseless accusations at my talk page and personal attacks in edit summaries does not help your case. Please stop. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 18:57, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

My aplogies Laszlo, I got the wrong guy. WCM_email 19:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, Taivo, my post to which you responded so negatively was in direct response to the proposed wording, which included the (in my humble opinion) inappropriate application of the OR and NPOV policies. Whether or not those policies apply to the selection of images in articles is still up in the air, so their inclusion in the wording appears to be premature. My argument might not sit well with you, but you should remember to discuss the argument (not the arguer) in a manner consistent with policies and guidelines, such as WP:AGF and WP:TALK. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.  Paine  23:35, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

What disruption? Selection of images is not WP:OR, its a normal part of the consensus based approach to deciding on the images to include in an article. Since when did one editor get to decide that other people's contributions to a debate is disruptive to the point where they're allowed to put a label on like this? There should not be a reference to WP:OR, editors have a right to state their opinion on this - otherwise what is the point of an RFC?. WCM_email 22:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

You don't get it and I'm not the only editor who considers this to be a disruption. You are arguing against the policy. That's perfectly fine. But this section of the discussion is not about whether to implement the policy or not, but about the wording of the policy after the RfC above is closed with consensus. Your arguments here have nothing whatsoever to do with wording the policy and everything to do with opposing the policy. These comments from you and Paine Ellsworth where you are opposing the policy are appropriate in the above section, but not in this one. --Taivo (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

No you don't get it, the comments are precisely about the wording. You just don't want to hear it. WCM_email 00:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The actual policy discussion continues here. --Taivo (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm OK with this wording. I'm not sure about the POV issue, myself, but that's something to be hashed out above.  Sandstein  16:00, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment: I agree with EvergreenFir that "similarly large human populations" is too vague; I was the one to initially point out the vagueness of it above, and noted that editors will understandably interpret it differently from one another. I also agree with Paine Ellsworth (and others) that the image selections are not "normally original research"; they are sometimes original research (but only when editors are selecting people as part of a group when no WP:Reliable sources identify them as part of that group), and I've thoroughly addressed this above as well. Like I noted with my "00:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)" post, "Per what I stated here and here, I just don't view the WP:OR policy as some others here do. To me, it's like stating that putting together a collage or gallery of anything is WP:OR because of editor selection. And if that's the case, we might as well get rid of collages and galleries altogether." In my "21:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)" post, I followed that up with: "I don't mind if the guideline states that WP:OR can be an issue in the case of these galleries or collages (I've seen ethnicity/racial matters be a WP:OR issue via interpretation); I mind it acting like WP:OR is more commonly the issue or is the prime issue." So I'd prefer the wording state "is often based on editors' point of view and may be original research, and is commonly contentious." Well, something like that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Editors also need to work out if this guideline piece is simply supposed to apply to lead images. I also noted that I don't see how "Oh, the images can't be used as the lead image...but can be used lower in the article." solves anything. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Procedural note: In response to a request at WP:AN, I have closed the RfC at Talk:Woman because this discussion will supersede it. The closing editor may want to consider comments made there. Sunrise (talk) 22:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - As the "fair amount of support" can only be based on a count rather than an uninvolved evaluation of arguments (closer), this section seems very premature. It presumes an outcome that is far from certain and puts Opposers in the position of having to debate language based on a premise that they oppose. My suggestion is to collapse this and start it over if and when the RfC passes. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:28, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

If this were starting from nothing, you'd have a point, Mandruss. But the same arguments that you have made above have already been made and rejected previously and the consensus there was overwhelming. The assumption that this RfC will end as the last one did is on sound footing. If, by some miracle, this RfC ends differently, then nothing is lost by working on wording here. Indeed, Evergreen's opposition to the RfC was based on its vagueness. He's the one who initiated this section in order to clarify what he considers to be less vague wording. --Taivo (talk) 23:36, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I would have to agree with you on this point, Taivo, in that EvergreenFir's attempt to clarify the wording was assuredly made in good faith; however, since EF opened the wording for discussion, please explain how it is "disruptive" for editors to disagree with that wording in this section?  Paine  23:48, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

If that's all you were doing, Paine, then your comments are welcome here. But that's not what you did above--you said that since OR and NPOV haven't been proven to your satisfaction, this whole RfC needs to be rejected. If you had put a period after your first sentence above, it would be something that could reasonably be discussed in this section, although it's been proven to the satisfaction of the majority of editors here. But the conclusion of your statement above makes your previous comment inappropriate for this section. --Taivo (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Then let's look at it more closely. Here is EF's proposed wording:

Articles about large broad human categorizations (e.g., ethnic groups, sexes, genders, nationalities, etc.) should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, based on editors' point of view, and often is contentious.

If we remove the part about OR and NPOV, then we have:

Articles about large broad human categorizations (e.g., ethnic groups, sexes, genders, nationalities, etc.) should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them often is contentious.

So please explain to me why you think my response was not spot on.  Paine  00:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. Regards, WCM_email 00:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

(ec)Again, if all you had written was this, Paine, then your comment is appropriate here (although I disagree with it). It was your ending comment that was an argument against this RfC that was not appropriate. This section is about how to word the policy assuming a successful conclusion, not an argument on whether the policy should be implemented. So based on that understanding, and your comment above, then we can move on. A majority of editors here have agreed that OR and NPOV in gallery selection has been adequately demonstrated so referring to them is appropriately based on a majority view. However, even without that, once policy has been established for no galleries in "human group" articles, a justification statement isn't even necessary. "Don't use galleries on 'human group' pages" is perfectly adequate for a policy statement (I'm summarizing EF's actual wording, of course). If a person is curious about the justification for the policy, then they can research this discussion, but 99.9% of all readers won't care about why the policy exists once it does. They will simply read "no galleries on these pages" and then move on. But even though not necessary, EF's justification statement is based on the majority view of the participants in both this RfC and the previous successful one. Indeed, you can refer to Sandstein's closing comment here for verification that these galleries are the result of OR. That is the prevailing view. --Taivo (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Hopefully you will forgive me for saying this, but my last sentence addressed the second wording above that omits the OR and NPOV. All that is left is contentiousness, and what would happen if we removed everything on Wikipedia that people argue over and about? Also and again, please try to remember that this is the talk page of an MOS guideline, and is not a policy page. If this guideline is in any way altered, it should only be done very carefully so as to be in keeping with actual policy. Have a good one, Taivo, I must move on for now.  Paine  00:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I am thoroughly annoyed at how acrimonious this discussion is... I've struck the "outcome" part of my initial comment in this section if it helps any. I started this section because there's at least a moderate chance this will be added to the MOS. I'd rather head off another RfC and get the wording figured out now in the event that does happen. I frankly don't care about the OR or POV part. Keep it or leave it. It really doesn't matter in the end whether we add a reason to why these galleries are not to be included. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 08:23, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The key part of your proposed wording is the first clause, in which you describe what types of articles this policy will affect--broad categorizations of humans such as X. This statement is a revision of the statement that is already in the article at #4 here. In looking at the comments here, I don't see any opposition to that wording. In reading through the other statements, I don't see many others that include justification. The second part of your proposed wording, the justification, is also simply what is already in the article. If we exclude the opinions of the individuals who oppose the RfC as a whole, there is actually broad (not unanimous, but broad) agreement that creating a gallery is an act of OR based on POV. Indeed, this RfC has one real function--to broaden the definition of what kinds of articles this policy applies to from ethnicities and nationalities to "broad categorizations of humans". The justification for the policy is actually immaterial at this point since it's already been decided in the prior RfC and explicitly delineated in the closing statement. The prior closing statement listed original research as the justification and nothing in the comments of support here seriously challenges that view. --Taivo (talk) 09:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

No matter how many times you assert it to be true, the selection of images to illustrate an article is not WP:OR but simply standard editorial discretion. It could never be WP:OR, since selection would be based on a WP:RS. The only sustainable reason for this is the controversy over the selection of individuals on some articles has lead to some editors concluding they're more trouble than they're worth; they're entitled to do so. Suggestion this is WP:OR may be the figleaf hidden behind to justify their removal but that still does not make it true. The suggestion that this figleaf should be included in the policy wording is not logical. WCM_email 18:06, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. We seem to have lost sight of the fact that we are here to serve readers. Unless it can be shown that significantly more readers object to these montages than would prefer to see them, we are serving ourselves, not readers. And there is a lot of that going on lately. Many editors exhibit a strong tendency to create or imagine issues where none actually exist. Catering to the sensibilities of 5% minorities should not be an overriding principle. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:03, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

It is a disservice to the reader to present these montages as if they were representative of these groups of people. The montages provide grounding for an essentialist viewpoint on ethnicity, sex, gender, &c., whereby certain groups of people are claimed to have a certain few innate traits that individuals within these groups cannot escape, and hence lends credence to stereotyping. Furthermore, these montages rate the worth and notability of people within these groups based on an arbitrary set of criteria, and even raise questions about whether certain people belong to these groups, which are once again presented as essentialist monoliths. Editorial discretion is one thing, but when dealing with groups of people, there are specialised concerns to deal with.

This is not necessarily just a concern with the montages, either. It is also a concern with single images presented in the infobox as if these images were factual depiction of the group of people being described. If a Japanese reader goes to the page Japanese people, and sees the picture that is presently there, one of two people in kimonos, will not that person wonder why this is considered representative of the Japanese as a people in the modern era? Will this person not wonder why the people in this picture do not dress as most Japanese do on a daily basis? Will this person not wonder why the Japanese have been orientalised and essentialised as kimono-wearing people standing in front of a shrine dedicated to Emperor Meiji? It is one thing to provide a picture of a person in a biography, or a picture of a place in an article describing that place, or a picture of a person in a historical article that has something to do with that person. However, it is another thing to provide images and posit them as representative of groups of people, without due consideration for the nature of these groups of people as fluid and non-concrete, as opposed to essentialised monoliths. RGloucester — ☎ 22:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

You still fail to justify guidance against these things. If you feel a better photo is needed at Japanese people, that can be addressed at Talk:Japanese people like any other content in that article. If you feel no photo would be acceptable, that can be addressed there likewise. If the consensus agrees with you, no photo will be used; if the consensus disagrees with you, you lose; either way, the system has worked as it was designed to work. There can be no one-size-fits-all in these things, and there is no need or justification for site-wide guidance against these images. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I am saying that no picture or montage can ever be appropriate for the lead image or infobox photo of an article on a group of people, and that the use of pictures in this manner should be proscribed as contrary to the essential policies and purpose of the encylopaedia. Guidance is required to ensure compliance with the policies of WP:NPOV, WP:OR, and so forth. The same reasons that apply to the image at Japanese people apply to all images of this sort on "x people" articles. RGloucester — ☎ 23:28, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Please explain why this reasoning applies only to groups of people and not to any collection of images determined solely by editorial judgment and consensus, as at Renoir. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:37, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The picture of Renoir in the infobox at Renoir is indeed a picture of the totality of Renoir. It is him, and serves a purpose to identify him as the concrete subject of the article. Any image in the infobox at a "group of people" article can never depict anything near the totality of said group, as these groups are not concrete, but fluid and ever-changing. There is not one subject to identify, but many, many subjects across history. Whilst the picture of Renoir can be said to be representative of Renoir in actual fact, an image such as the one at Japanese people can never be said to be representative of the subject that is Japanese people. RGloucester — ☎ 23:45, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I was not referring to the infobox photo but the choices of images of his work throughout the article. Surely you wouldn't suggest that the essential difference is that the collection of images is assembled into a single montage at the top of the article? It comes down to a matter of scrolling? ―Mandruss ☎ 23:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

There are two main differences. The first is that the infobox image or the lead image, if there is no infobox, serve to define the topic in a way that images in the body of the article do not. Images in the infobox are meant to provide an overview of the topic, an encapsulation of what is contained in the article. Images in the body of the article, on the other hand, serve to provide illustrations of matters discussed in the body. There is nothing wrong with including a picture done by Renoir in the body of the article whilst speaking about his painting. Such an image does not claim to be representative of Renoir's work in general, unlike it would do if it were placed at the top of the article in lieu of a picture of Renoir himself. The other difference is the that the work of Renoir is a definite topic, with clearly defined boundaries as a subject. The same cannot be said for "Japanese people", or for any other group of people. RGloucester — ☎ 23:57, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok, one or two fair points in there. Now see Dog and Plant. Nine breeds arbitrarily chosen to convey the concept of "dog", 15 species arbitrarily chosen to convey the concept of "plant". I just want to be clear that you feel humans warrant special treatment in this regard. If so, why? If not, if you feel the same applies to other groups of things including dogs and plants, then the wording of the guideline needs to be changed accordingly. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:06, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I think that most people would agree that it is considered generally acceptable to essentialise the "dog" as a biological category, even if that essentialism is rooted in our inability to comprehend the extent of consciousness that a dog possesses. This is not generally considered acceptable when applied to humans, which is why we have things like the WP:BLP policy. RGloucester — ☎ 00:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't support it if limited to humans, as that smacks of political correctness, a cleansing of Wikipedia from a liberal perspective, something that I have always strongly opposed despite recent trends. (I say this as someone who self-identifies as center-left.) But don't worry, you probably won't need my support. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't even know what "political correctness" means, and I'm certainly not a liberal. Do you understand how a picture of some breeds of dog does not mislead the reader about what a dog is, but how a picture of two Japanese in kimonos outside the Meiji Shrine participating in Coming of Age Day presents a skewed picture of what a Japanese is? No? I think that the difference should be rather obvious, and it has nothing to do with "cleansing" or "political correctness". RGloucester — ☎ 00:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

To editor WCM: Thank you for your response!  Paine  19:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

EvergreenFir, I figured that you would support the removal or rewording of the "OR" piece since, in the Talk:Woman discussion, you argued that the image selection is not OR. You are okay with "OR" remaining the way it is in the guideline (as though it is the primary problem) even though image selection, even for galleries, is not usually an OR violation? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think it should be there but my bigger concern is the "large group" part. I'd support the removal of the or and pov parts. Really don't think they're necessary. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I disagree about their being unnecessary. Certainly POV is the cornerstone of the problem, and arguments as to 'editorial discretion' don't wash. Just taking a look at the online Britannica for Human being demonstrates how an encyclopaedic tertiary source presents the subject matter. I'll reiterate my argument that Wikipedia is aimed at a demographic known as 'Human beings', more specifically those above the age of 3. The use of images for groups of human beings may be perceived by a handful of editors who work on the article in question to be edifying for the reader, but it is a WP:PPOV premise in the first instance. Once, per PPOV, it is established that an image gallery or individual image is somehow going to inform the reader of something they're incapable of understanding without diagrams, the choice of image/s becomes POV and breaches WP:NOR. While the images may not be OR in as much as they are reliably sourced and verifiable as being examples of that group, the process of selecting an image or images as being 'more representative' is POV. In fact, such an exercise is WP:SYNTH. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Certainly POV is the cornerstone of the problem,

I can understand why some editors think this; however, the problem is to find a way to make the selection of images NPOV. In the past and for up to 15 years, now, this has been done on the talk pages of the individual articles. It should not be dictated by policy nor guideline that NPOV violations should be handled anywhere else but on the talk pages of the articles. No policy nor guideline should be worded to countermand the many discussions and deliberations, the huge amount of consensus, that has taken place to choose which images are to be used in an article.

arguments as to 'editorial discretion' don't wash.

By "editorial discretion" is meant only that editors on each individual talk page have been and should continue to be the ones who choose what images are in any article. If a guideline or policy dictates that certain images or types of images cannot be used in articles, then it removes the traditional role of editors – it removes editorial discretion and dictates to editors more than it should. It's okay for a policy or guideline to set forth how images are selected, but it is not okay for a policy or guideline to be involved with the actual selections – that is done on the talk pages by use of editorial discretion, discussion and consensus. After that, the selections cannot possibly be deemed violations of WP:OR, WP:SYNTH or WP:NPOV. Editorial discretion on individual talk pages guards against such violations.

the process of selecting an image or images as being 'more representative' is POV.

I would agree if that is what was being done, but it is not. "More representative" is not what is being sought during the selection of images, because said selection is merely to decide which examples of the subject matter should be used. None are "more" or "less" representative – a woman is a woman, a man is a man, and a human is a human – the images chosen are merely examples representative of the subject, not more representative, just representative examples.  Paine  09:51, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Paine Ellsworth, but you've simply resurrected the argument that it's been a practice on Wikipedia for a long time, and that a BADIDEA was a good idea in the first instance. You've not presented any arguments for how it is informative for the reader (other than in the minds of editors who like the practice) and are pleading a case for it being some form of censorship of the inherent rights of editors not to be censored. We are, in fact, not discussing the right of editors to pursue bad ideas: we are discussing whether it is encyclopaedic to present image galleries providing visual cues for the readers to be able to identify what a 'Human', 'Man', 'Woman', 'Black person', 'White person', 'Purplish-orange person' is. Our readers are the same species as us and know what such concepts are. As is evidenced by this talk page, a far larger number of editors understand such galleries as being nonsensical and uninformative. The premise behind this discussion is not to protect some strange convolution on the rights of editors to make uninformative editorial decisions. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:55, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Don't be sorry, Iryna, just please be thorough:

you've simply resurrected the argument

I didn't "resurrect" anything. In point of fact, it is you who resurrected arguments that I've squashed before. All I did was to answer your resurrections in kind – fight fire with fire, so to speak.

a BADIDEA was a good idea in the first instance

It's never been a bad idea to discuss things like the selection of images, galleries and montages on the talk pages of individual articles, has it? How far are you willing to go with that? Is it a bad idea to discuss the notable entries in templates? or is that also OR and a violation of NPOV?

You've not presented any arguments for how it is informative for the reader

I must write in a really boring manner, because you apply this sweeping statement to me that is patently false. I have already stated a case for how it is informative for readers ("a picture is worth a thousand words"), so I resurrect it again just for you.

[you] are pleading a case for it being some form of censorship of the inherent rights of editors not to be censored.

I never used the term "censorship", although that is precisely what it is. Good call.

we are discussing whether it is encyclopaedic to present image galleries providing visual cues for the readers to be able to identify what a 'Human', 'Man', 'Woman', 'Black person', 'White person', 'Purplish-orange person' is.

No, we are really discussing whether or not it is encyclopedic to present image galleries/montages that provide visual cues for the readers of representative examples, illustrations, of the subject matter, just as it has been encyclopedic for many years.

As is evidenced by this talk page, a far larger number of editors understand such galleries as being nonsensical and uninformative. The premise behind this discussion is not to protect some strange convolution on the rights of editors to make uninformative editorial decisions.

It seems odd that this even has to be addressed. These montages are by no means nonsensical and uninformative – rather the opposite in my humble opinion. So in your estimation, the last several years has been frought with editors who have made "uninformative decisions" where the selection of images is concerned? Where do you intend to pull in the reins on that idea? I mean, there are so many areas on Wikipedia where various types of items are selected by discussions on the talk pages. Not just articles, but also navbar templates, project pages, help pages and such. Are these also instances of "uninformative editorial decisions"? And here I've always thought that whether I agreed with them or not, they represented "consensus", an idea that you and others don't seem to deem very important on Wikipedia.  Paine  23:38, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Would religious groups like Mormons be covered by this? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 13:59, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: Why would any religious groups be exempt from a gallery depicting 'notable/extraordinary' people who are/were adherents to that faith? There is no qualitative difference between Zoroastrians in Iran, Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, Evangelical Protestants, Hindus, Hutterites, or any other religious groups other than their belief systems. Belief systems are not embodied by, nor informatively illustrated by 'notable individuals' unless there is an absolute founder of the religion. Even there, using a single image of the 'founder' in the infobox does not inform the reader as to the belief system or practices of the group. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm asking more if religions fall under broad human categorizations. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:47, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Apologies if you misunderstood the brunt of my response, EvergreenFir. I've only just realised that it comes across as being brusque, which was not my intent. I am saying that, yes, they would fall under broad human categories as they are not dependent on anything outside of a system of faith. Even if they exclude other (ethnic) groups due to the localisation of their origins/primary geographical context, such proscriptions are not going to be better expressed by the inclusion of galleries in the infobox. Visual cues (such as particular forms of dress codes) are better articulated by the use of images (per WP:PERTINENCE) within the body of the article. Such images only relate to obvious visual cues and cannot express what it means to be a member of such a group psychologically/spiritually. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: how about you check your own attitude. If you wanted a specific example of WP:VANDALISM and WP:POV all you had to do was kindly (operative word) ask for it (which was actually pretty easy to find) [[1]] wherein citations and new entries were changed/deleted replaced with "forced conversion" (since the editors are Muslim...that's the version they feel is best). All under the guise of getting rid of the gallery...which they did along with the other errant edits (of course they didn't say this in the summary. Need more examples?Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

After this RfC closes

As others have stated above, if this RfC closes with consensus for the broad interpretation of the gallery aspect, we should work out the wording for the content since a number editors, including ones who do support the broad interpretation of the guideline, clearly do not agree that the matter is WP:OR, and also have significant disagreement about the "similarly large human populations" wording. And there is also the matter of having the gallery lower in the article. How is it any more of a problem for the lead than if it's placed lower in the article? I personally think it would be a shame not to have such a gallery as the lead image at the Girl and Boy articles (yes, the Girl article currently has such a gallery as a lead image too); lead images indeed make articles more welcoming to our readers, and one image as the lead image for topics such as these do not suffice (for reasons already noted above). This is why the Boy article currently has a number of images trying to be a lead image, with the images ultimately spanning from the top of the article to two subsections. Perhaps editors can find a lead image that showcases the diversity of people without the image being a gallery or collage. At the Adolescence article, we currently have two lead images, with one meant to show diversity. For many topics, there is no way to have a lead image that is going to be representative of the topic or the topic as a whole. For example, at the Apple article, we currently have a red apple there, but there are different types of apples. Granted, having that red apple as the lead image is easy since it's not an ethnic/racial matter, and since a red apple is likely what people think of first when they think of "apple." Either way, I still don't see how this guideline will work. If editors at a talk page come to a consensus for a gallery as the lead image, that will likely be the lead image, despite what the guideline states and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS be damned. This case also seems to be the first case of an editor socking to edit war over this new image guideline. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment - I have to say that the images of adolescents are very much grounded in contemporary Western visuals. Personally, I don't find it informative but, rather, stereotypical. Is the mainstay of the content about defining what it is to be an adolescent in the Western world in the 21st century. If so, where are the lads with coursing testosterone being aggressive as a by-product of testosterone overdrive? I have to say that, just at a cursory glance, the weight of the article is driven by the contemporary Western concept, whereas the historical social context takes a back seat (somewhere right near the end of the article). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I totally agree with User:Iryna Harpy that the visuals at Adolescent, for example, are not in the slightest illustrative, but are stereotypical and exclusively Western in orientation. Rather than retreating back to the galleries, these need to be eliminated. It is OR and POV to somehow select a photo or two to illustrate any large human group. While you may think that someone has "done a good job" of selecting a representative photo, it is always exclusionary. --Taivo (talk) 22:42, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, this obviously isn't the place to have a full-on discussion about the Adolescence article (I mean, feel free to use that article's talk page for criticism of the article), but I'll go ahead and comment a little on it here: What is stereotypical about the second lead image in that article? It was the best that could be done without resorting to a gallery or collage. Either way, editors and readers wanted lead images for that article, and the matter was discussed times before at the article talk page, as is common when it comes to deciding what is or isn't a lead image or what images should be in other parts of the article. As for images in other parts of that article, they are all relevant to whatever section in question, but I'd rather File:Eleonora di Don Garzia di Toledo di Pietro de' Medici, by Alessandro Allori.jpg and File:James Collinson - The Sisters.jpg be removed; they were added by Tobby72. If you or others are interested in how the images for that article were selected, you can look at this and this discussion; in that first one, I note that images added by Tobby72 were removed before. In that second discussion (my "13:14, 18 March 2013 (UTC)" post), I stated, "I prefer an image that shows a group of adolescents, one that shows boys and girls, preferably of different ethnicities, as to show diversity. As you can see, choosing a lead image for this article is not as easy as it would appear." I'm also not sure what you mean by "the weight of the article is driven by the contemporary Western concept." Most of the topics in the article concern more than just western society, and the vast majority of Wikipedia articles are driven by contemporary views, with historical views usually being placed last in a History section. But I'm responsible for little regarding that article, despite my edit count there. The vast majority of the article is the result of class assignments, and a new class assignment is on the way there. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

TaivoLinguist, I obviously disagree with you about the WP:OR and WP:NPOV assertions; reasons why have already been made abundantly clear by me and various others above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:57, 31 January 2016‎ (UTC)

We won't be excluding images from the Man, Woman, Boy, Girl, Adolescence or ethnicity articles based on the aforementioned WP:OR and WP:NPOV assertions. The most that will be done is excluding a lead gallery image or a lead collage image. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:01, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

There is no difference between a "lead gallery" and a "lead collage". A collage is nothing more than a gallery with fewer photos. It's still unacceptable. And a single image is subject to WP:CONSENSUS as to whether it even exists or not. A single image to represent all adolescents around the world is simply POV. --Taivo (talk) 01:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Galleries and collages are different things; by "collage," I mean a single image that an editor made by putting together different images, whereas a gallery consists of separate images put side by side. I mention both because both are subject to this image debate. And these groups of images often exist in our Wikipedia articles because one image often is not representative or not representative enough. Like I stated above, "For many topics, there is no way to have a lead image that is going to be representative of the topic or the topic as a whole." And as others have made clear to you, all image selections are POV in a sense; that does not and will not stop us from using images in Wikipedia articles. There is no violation of the WP:Neutral policy in doing so. I've read your arguments, and just like I will not convince you that there is no WP:Neutral policy violation in selection of images, despite the selections being subject to POV, you will not convince me that selection of images is a WP:Neutral policy violation. Lead images often are not about being representative; they are often about educating our readers, including by indicating that the topic is diverse, or making articles more welcoming to our readers. And given how many articles I've been at, since 2007, with our readers commenting as IPs about the need for a lead image, the "lead images commonly improve the presentation of an article" argument is most certainly true. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:28, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I know the meaning of the word "collage". But in our context here, a collage is nothing more than a gallery that has been edited into one electronic file by a single editor. In other words, as you have stated, they are, indeed, both equally subject to this image debate and will be equally unacceptable by this policy change. If a group of editors at a particular article agree on a single image to represent a topic (something that, I suspect, will be impossible at "worldwide" articles like Woman), then so be it. There will be other images in the article that can illustrate particular points about "woman", but the infobox will not contain them. --Taivo (talk) 11:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. It might be interesting to hear something new from folks instead of the old, already discussed issues and points. Most people don't seem to accept that the selection of images in ibox collages are violations of NPOV and/or OR policies. They have been installed over many years of talk-page selections and consensus, so no way could they presently be policy violations. All the other arguments in support of this proposition are less superfluous and yet, while seemingly compelling, are still without much substance. So yes, it would be far better if someone can come up with a substantive argument against the continuation of editorial discretion and consensus on the talk pages of individual articles. For a style guideline to dictate that all past consensus should be swept away without better reasons than have been given in this discussion would be an obvious violation of the first sentence at WP:CONLIMITED (a "policy violation"). So by all means, let's hear some fresh and powerful arguments (if such arguments even exist).  Be prosperous! Paine  12:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

As a now-silent observer (with this exception), I'll point out that your opponents believe in good faith that they have already given the substantive arguments you are requesting. That there are no fresher arguments, and that none are necessary. Your comment is essentially, "I'm not swayed", which is not a particularly useful comment. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:38, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

My comment is more than that, friend Mandruss. It is a comment on how when someone like Flyer22 Reborn begins a section titled After this RfC closes, confused supporters chime in with the old arguments that have been refuted in the past. I allude to the fact that that in itself goes against the Talk page guidelines that guide us not to repeat and repeat the old arguments. Thank you for your welcome help!  Paine  14:27, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Sarcasm/snark received and tolerated (if that's what it was, and it's impossible to tell the difference in an environment where sarcasm and snark are rampant). I fully agree that it's a waste of everyone's time to keep regurgitating the same arguments again and again. That is not what you originally said, however. I can only respond to what you say, not what you mean to say. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be confused, User:Paine Ellsworth, about which section you are posting in. Your arguments against generalizing the removal of galleries and your veiled attacks against other arguments belong in the previous section, not this one. This section is solely about the precise wording of the policy once consensus is judged and the RfC is closed. Any decision made in this RfC will override local consensus, even your precious ones. --Taivo (talk) 16:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Taivo, one thing that editors object to when it comes to your arguments is that you keep calling this page a policy page. As others have stated to you, it's not. It's a guideline page. Our guidelines have different sway than our policies. There is a lot more leeway with guidelines, which is one of the arguments about image size in the big size debate above on the talk page. WP:Policies and guidelines states, "Although Wikipedia does not employ hard-and-fast rules, Wikipedia policy and guideline pages describe its principles and best-agreed practices. Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

One thing that is very clear from the discussion here and above is that if this "guideline" isn't adhered to, it will be presented at the policy page and become policy. Too many editors are supporting the removal of galleries to prevent its implementation throughout Wikipedia. The last-ditch attempts to try to circumvent it are simply that--last ditch attempts to preserve something which the majority of editors oppose. --Taivo (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It appears that your "jump the gun" usage of "policy" in your posts, then, is some sort of "act as if it has already become true and it will become true" behavior – admirable, but in this case, I'm afraid, hopeless. The idea of "consensus" on Wikipedia seems to have escaped you, Taivo, because it has nothing at all to do with "something which the majority of editors" support or oppose. It has everything to do with the rationales of those editors, for it is those reasonings that are scrutinized by closers and that govern the outcome. When one takes an objective look at the rationales in this discussion, then one might easily conclude that there is no consensus to dictate the selection of images, galleries and montages by use of a guideline when that has been handled very well by discussion on individual talk pages. So when this RfC fails, there will be no reason to reword this guideline, and every reason to revisit the previous RfC that was proposed by a blocked sockpuppet.  Paine  15:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

You are confused about the meaning of "consensus". While it is not a "vote", it is definitely based on the common view of the majority of editors. A "vote" means that 11-10 wins. That's not a consensus because the views are fairly evenly divided. In that case, an administrator may be needed to judge the relative value of each position. However, when two (or more) out of every three editors supports a position, that is consensus unless it is an overt violation of some Wikipedia policy. This particular discussion neither supports an overt violation of Wikipedia policy, nor is it close. You seem to be in denial about those two simple facts. --Taivo (talk) 20:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm confused, but not about what consensus means on Wikipedia, because I've read the consensus policy. Nor am I confused about what section I'm posting in, and aren't you the wise and knowledgable person to think that I am confused. What confounds me is how so many editors here want to completely ignore WP:CONLIMITED to override all the consensuses on all the talk pages where this change would apply. Just toss 'em out, which basically says that none of those consensuses over all those years are valid anymore. A consensus here should nullify all that? Unconscionable! (and yes, very confusing).  Paine  03:13, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

OK, so now we have blatant WP:VANDALISM going on here where certain editors are taking away all galleries under this nebulous "large populations" umbrella, specifically having to do with religion. Who is the Admin running this and can we get some page protections UNTIL it is deemed WHICH "large populations" are to be targeted? Trinacrialucente (talk) 07:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Trinacrialucente: Would you please modify your tone. I've just been through the history of articles on religion you've been working on and see absolutely nothing that constitutes WP:VANDAL. Any disagreements as to what images are apt for any given article are disagreements, not vandalism. All editors are welcome to challenge content and go WP:BOLD: this includes challenging images per WP:PERTINENCE. It has nothing to do with this RfC, and shifting the blame to this RfC in order to make a very loud, bad faith assertion is disruptive in itself. If you can't justify the use of images you want in an article, perhaps they're just not useful or edifying according to other editors. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: how about you check your own attitude. If you wanted a specific example of WP:VANDALISM and WP:POV all you had to do was kindly (operative word) ask for it (which was actually pretty easy to find) [[2]] wherein citations and new entries were changed/deleted replaced with "forced conversion" (since the editors are Muslim...that's the version they feel is best). All under the guise of getting rid of the gallery...which they did along with the other errant edits (of course they didn't say this in the summary. Need more examples?Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:23, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Trinacrialucente: Could you please provide the diff again? You appear to have inadvertently added a wikilink back to this page instead of the diff you'd intended to provide. Thanks. Outside of this, please note that POV pushers frequently use misleading edit summaries (AKA lie) about what changes they're making. That does not mean that this RfC is to blame. Sneaky editors will continue to use sneaky tactics. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:31, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Where did I blame this RfC? I have no opinion one way or another, and was simply asking for help on a case of WP:POV and WP:VANDALISM. Either show me where I am saying this RfC is "to blame" or retract your statement.Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Trinacrialucente: I hatted this because I thought I understood what you were saying. I've gathered that English isn't your first language, and the more responses you've made, the less I understood what your point or question is. You've now unhatted this with an edit summary of, "No...I was looking for clarification on what were considered "large populations". You jade the claim, no respond or delete your accusation." Now I've understood that this was a query about what constitutes a 'large population', but I don't understand the rest of what you're saying or asking.

You provided [[3]] ← this as a diff which doesn't work even if I change the markup to this. I asked to you to please provide a working wikilink, but you didn't respond. Your comment/query came in literally just a few hours before the RfC was officially over, and I'm still no closer to understanding what it is you want to say about WP:VANDAL, or where page protection is needed. If someone else has understood your message, I'd be grateful if they could help me out because I'm out of my depth, and this isn't something the closer should have to try to wade through. Obviously, I've done something bad because you're offended. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

In answer to 'how large a group' this applies to, I can only provide you with my take (and following the gist of what other editors in the discussions throughout the RfC have said on the matter), being that there is no absolute numerical answer. As with all guidelines (and policies), WP:COMMONSENSE applies. If, for example, you are working on articles on religion and have a gallery of notables for Christians, the use of such a gallery would not be edifying for the reader as it does nothing to illustrate what being a Christian means. The same would apply to Muslims (noting that there's now a gallery beneath the infobox of 'Famous Muslim converts from various fields' - how is that edifying?), Buddhists, etc. The same applies to sub-groups like Sunnis, Catholics, etc. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:01, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Just to let involved editors know that I've requested that this RfC be assessed and closed. Cheers, all! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion of close

S Marshall, thanks for closing this RfC. That said, I want to address one part of your statement: "For example, it would affect the galleries in Amputation or Child."

The wording in dispute is about images in the lead, since that wording is in the guideline section about the lead. If I thought that the wording was to dictate galleries placed anywhere in the article (meaning not just in the lead), then I would have alerted a lot more people to the discussion, including WP:Med and WP:Anatomy, since I highly doubt that they would agree to remove galleries from the bottom of our medical and anatomy articles. The current wording of your close might be taken as license by editors to remove galleries of people or their body parts from any part of an article, even though the guideline wording at hand is currently in the lead section of the guideline, and this page is not a policy page. All that stated, I did query, including in the "After this RfC closes" section above, the following: "And there is also the matter of having the gallery lower in the article. How is it any more of a problem for the lead than if it's placed lower in the article?" Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:51, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

While I completely support the close and overall conclusion of the ruling, I'm concerned about Amputation being included in the closing rationale. That's not a "large group of people". That's a medical procedure. This RfC was never about "Anything that has anything to do with people", but about large groups of people. I don't recall anyone ever mentioning things like medical procedures or the like being included. I would have opposed such non-group things being included in the ruling, while firmly supporting the RfC otherwise. --Taivo (talk) 16:32, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Those are not images of amputation, which is as you say a medical procedure. They're images of amputees. Are amputees not a large group of people?—S Marshall T/C 17:08, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

The definition of "large groups of people" in terms of this RfC was the group as topic of the articles in question, not as ancillary galleries of people photographs in articles not about a large group of people (Amputation is not about a large group of people, but about a medical procedure, unlike Ukrainians or Children). By overextending the scope of this RfC well beyond the understanding of the majority of supporters here, we run the risk of making Wikipedia useless. Images of people in general were not the problem addressed in this RfC, it was the generally unrepresentative selection of images to illustrate groups with the best and brightest and most famous. --Taivo (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

S Marshall, whatever the case on that, like I noted above, "The wording in dispute is about images in the lead, since that wording is in the guideline section about the lead." I don't know if there is consensus to extend the wording beyond the lead. It can be validly argued that there is, and validly argued that there isn't. Furthermore, looking at the text, I'm reminded that it states "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations." It focuses on articles that are about the groups. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:31, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Shall I begin a closure review? I've re-considered, and personally I still think I have the consensus nailed down here. I think that a gallery of amputees would be within scope, and I think most of the RfC participants would have understood it like that; this wasn't restricted in scope to ages or ethnicities. It was a discussion about whether to extend the conclusion about ethnicities to other broad groups of people. Which means it applies to regular haircut as much as it applies to women, right?—S Marshall T/C 19:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

The RFC was explicitly about "articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations" (my emphasis) and editors used such phrases in the discussion. No-one, as far as I can see, clearly suggested it should apply to all image galleries of humans, both in articles that are explicitly about large human populations and in other articles about matters such as amputation or haircuts. It doesn't seem safe to conclude that that has consensus. NebY (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

A review of consensus isn't necessary since you nailed that fact that there was a clear consensus against galleries in articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations. That is actually the wording that was inserted into the guideline. That's where the clear consensus lies. It was your personal extension to human photo galleries everywhere that is the problem. There is a clear consensus for the more restrictive wording, but not for your very broad wording. There was no argument anywhere in the RfC or in the previous RfC that included all human galleries in all articles. All that is necessary is for you to reword your closing statement to restrict it to articles about ethnic groups and other large human groups as stated in the guideline wording. --Taivo (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

That's what happens when an iconoclastic breeze starts: it may become a storm. Carlotm (talk) 20:19, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

S Marshall, so you interpret the consensus to extend beyond lead images and to cover all image galleries of humans? If consensus is actually for that, which I don't think it is, the guideline should reflect. Right now, it doesn't; and I reiterate that this part of the guideline is focused on lead images. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:17, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• I think it applied to image galleries of groups of people where there is contention about which people should be selected to represent that particular group.—S Marshall T/C 08:29, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The guideline would be pointless if it just covers the lead images. Just look at Christianity, someone simply moved the gallery of "famous Christians" to the 'Christian culture' section. STSC (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

S Marshall, you asked, "Shall I begin a closure review?" I think it's clear that you should, per the disagreement above. I very much doubt that anyone is going to adhere to your broad interpretation, especially since such wording is not even currently in the guideline. First, Sandstein interpreted the consensus broadly. And now you have. Matters regarding this case still need fixing. NebY started the fixing by removing two aspects that were hotly disputed above, and were not agreed upon even by those supporting Sandstein's broad interpretation. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• Close review begun here. All the best—S Marshall T/C 01:53, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

For a quicker link to the discussion, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#RfC close review please?. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

What were you talking about?

What was this RFC actually about?

Yes, this is a gallery.	No, this is not a gallery.
This is a gallery.	This is a photo montage.

Based on some edits I've seen, this RFC was actually about photo montages, not <galleries>. Is my impression correct? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes it is. I've added 2 words to the guideline. I've left galleries in for now, although I don't think that they were actually discussed at all in the discussion - I'm not going to actually read it. There was a lot of discussion on what exactly they were talking about, without seeming to come to much of a conclusion. Isn't it wierd that (User:Flyer22 Reborn excepted) on this of all pages none of the participants seem to know the difference? Whether the new ruling should actually apply to galleries is a question. The close seems at the least to cover a broader topic than the discussion did, and should be changed to reflect this. Johnbod (talk) 14:11, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

The original RFC discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the infoboxes of articles about ethnic groups, which the above RFC either extended to a wider range of articles or clarified, used "gallery", "montage" and even "collage" with no-one trying to draw a distinction and suggest that one was acceptable and the other not. Even if you don't want to read the whole thing, you may find the question at the head of the RFC and the close beside it reassure you that the terms were treated as interchangeable, in that the same arguments applied and the consensus covered both. NebY (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, I suppose that other people may disagree, but I think that there's a large gap between "Please don't put a photo montage in the infobox at the top of the article" and "Thou shalt not have an actual gallery of portraits in any part of any article about groups of people, even if the section is a list of notable people in that group". The first RFC appears to have covered only the question of lead/infobox images, and this one seems to be asking a much broader question – one that may someday be used to justify blanking Bride#Examples of bridal garments and similar galleries. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:46, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Such points have already been raised and responded to in the RFcs and/or at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive909#There is likely to be trouble ahead and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive278#RfC close review please?. NebY (talk) 18:34, 24 February 2016 (UTC)