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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 23:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Neith

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Potymkin on 23:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Neith (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Potymkin (talk · contribs)
• A. Parrot (talk · contribs)
• BrocadeRiverPoems (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An information about an ancient deity in Kemet has surfaced where the goddess Neith is described by ancient egyptians as 'Libyan Neith' shows the origins of this deity, user A. Parrot argues that this information is false and that Neith has purely egyptian origins while user Potymkin claims that Libyan Neith as described by ancient egyptians is the case, user A. Parrot presents Wilkinson and Lesko two egyptologists as proof that the deity is purely egyptian but after much reading reading on their works and presenting their books and page numbers in the talk page, even these egyptologists disagree with the point that Neith is purely egyptian and solemnly agree with Libyan Neith. after contacting Lesko via email she appears to be on board with Libyan Neith. the matter requires final settlement as neither party wants to concede.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neith#Claimed_Berber_origin

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think taking time to consider both sides of the matter and the arguments presented in the talk page can help resolve the issue

Summary of dispute by A. Parrot

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Neith was worshipped in Egypt for more than 3,000 years, and the earliest evidence about her dates to the very murky Protodynastic Period. The sources describe her origins as uncertain; Five Egyptian Goddesses: Their Possible Beginnings, Actions, and Relationships in the Third Millennium BCE by Susan Tower Hollis says (p. 115) that Neith "presents the biggest puzzle of these goddesses".

At particular issue are two passages from books in the article's source list. Lesko 1999 says (p. 47) "Hermann Kees describes the northwestern part of the delta as being inhabited primarily by Libyans and points out that during the Old Kingdom Neith was characterized by Egyptians as Neith from Libya, 'as if she was the chieftainess of the neighboring people with whom the inhabitants of the Nile valley were at all times at war.' Other Egyptologists dispute this connection, however, and the first appearance of Neith is purely Egyptian." Wilkinson 2003 says (p. 157) "Although she was sometimes called 'Neith of Libya', this reference may simply refer to the proximity of the Libyan region to the goddess's chief province in the west­ern Delta."

Potymkin insists the article should describe Neith as Libyan or "Egypto-Libyan" and regards these passages in the sources as supporting that position. I believe the article should say scholars are uncertain about Neith's origins but describe a Libyan origin for her as a viable hypothesis—not a certainty. Potymkin continues to mischaracterize me as insisting Neith was "purely Egyptian". A. Parrot (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Neith discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

I am ready to conduct moderated discussion about the Neith article .

Please read DRN Rule A and indicate whether you agree to follow these rules and whether you want moderated discussion.

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. If you agree to moderated discussion, please state concisely what you want to change in the article, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Neith)

Thank you @Robert McClenon for offering to help to make wikipedia articles more comprehensive I am happy that you are able to provide some of your time for this issue, in the Neith article I would like to keep the following statement in the lead of the article: "was an early Libyan deity  worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians. She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located). Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC." along with all of its relevant sources, this is due to sources I provided from UNESCO library, World History Encyclopedia which their publications are recommended by many educational institutions including:

• Oxford University
• Common Sense Education
• School Library Journal
• MERLOT
• University of Wisconsin-Madison

and several archeologists and egyptologists and multiple other sources that confirm the statement to be kept. Potymkin (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Neith )

Each editor has stated briefly what they want to say about the origin of Neith. One editor says that she was a Libyan deity whose worship spread to Egypt. Another editor says that her origin is uncertain, but that the hypotheses include a Libyan origin. Is either editor willing to try to craft a compromise wording that will be acceptable to both editors?

DRN Rule A states that each editor is expecting to participate in discussion at least every 48 hours. If either of you will need longer wikibreaks, please let me know and we will see what alternate rule we can set up. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:14, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Neith)

@Robert McClenon thank you for taking the necessary time to analyze both view points correctly, I have crafted the terminology Egyptian-Libyan Deity that is acceptable which I suggested on the talk page Talk:Neith#Claimed Berber origin to try to resolve the issue. I am also open to suggestions of terminology that indicate the Libyan roots of Neith. the terminology already present at the article "she was adopted from Libya or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located" is sufficient to describe multiple viewpoints in my honest opinion. Potymkin (talk) 09:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon: My apologies for not responding. I haven't participated at DRN before and am a bit confused by the instructions and the format. E.g., I'm not even sure if I'm putting this comment in the right place—please relocate it if I've gotten it wrong.

My problem is that I don't know what compromise Potymkin would be open to that reflects what the sources actually say. Potymkin's argument is built on synthesis, ably summed up in this comment by User:Lone-078 (who is a party to this dispute but hasn't been notified to discuss here). It is an Egyptological hypothesis, but not one that is universally held, that Neith originated among the Libyan peoples of the Protodynastic Period. It is a certainty that Libyan peoples 2,000 years later worshipped her. But that does not mean she is certain to have been Libyan or Egypto-Libyan at her origin. Any claim to the contrary is a misrepresentation of the sources. A. Parrot (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Forgive my ignorance, but what is the next step here? A. Parrot (talk) 14:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (Neith )

The next step is that I will ask each editor to propose a revised version of the lede paragraph presenting what they think should be the introduction to the article. Since the issue is her origin, any statement about her origin should be clearly attributed to a source. That is, if you propose to say that she is of Libyan origin, the source must state that she is of Libyan origin. Then we can look at any issues of the reliability of sources, but first we need to compare revised drafts of the lede paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Neith)

thank you for your consideration @Robert McClenon, the following is my suggested lead paragraph where sources show her clear libyan origin down to the book and the page:

Neith /ˈniː.ɪθ/ (Template:Lang-grc-koi, a borrowing of the Demotic form Template:Lang-egy, likely originally to have been nrt "the terrifying one"; also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit) was an early Libyan deity worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians. She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located). Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC. She was said to be the creator and governor of the universe and the inventor of birth. She was the goddess of the cosmos, fate, wisdom, water, rivers, mothers, childbirth, hunting, weaving, and, originally, war. Potymkin (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This is imperfect, but I think it better reflects the relative weight given by the sources. They don't usually spend much time on her possible Libyan origins and pay more attention to other aspects of Neith, so our article lead should do the same. A. Parrot (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Neith /ˈniː.ɪθ/ (Template:Lang-grc-koi, a borrowing of the Demotic form Template:Lang-egy, also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit) was an ancient Egyptian deity. She was connected with warfare, as indicated by her emblem of two crossed bows, and with motherhood, as shown by texts that call her the mother of particular deities, such as the sun god Ra and the crocodile god Sobek. As a mother goddess, she was sometimes said to be the creator of the world. She also had a presence in funerary religion, and this aspect of her character grew over time: she became one of the four goddesses who protected the coffin and internal organs of the deceased.

Neith is one of the earliest Egyptian deities to appear in the archaeological record; the earliest signs of her worship date to the Naqada II period (c. 3600–3350 BC). Her main cult center was the city of Sais in Lower Egypt, near the western edge of the Nile Delta, and some Egyptologists have suggested that she originated among the Libyan peoples who lived nearby. She was the most important goddess in the Early Dynastic Period (c. 3100–2686 BC) and had a significant shrine at the capital, Memphis. In subsequent eras she lost her preeminence to other goddesses, such as Hathor, but she remained important, particularly during the Twenty-sixth Dynasty (664–525 BC), when Sais was Egypt's capital. She was worshipped in many temples during the Greek and Roman periods of Egyptian history, most significantly Esna in Upper Egypt, and the Greeks identified her with their goddess Athena.

Third statement by possible moderator (Neith )

I have looked over the draft versions of the lede sentence. The first conflict between the two versions has to do with the nationality of Neith, in the first sentence. I suggest that the first sentence be written to compromise between calling her Egyptian and calling her Libyan. I suggest that the opening sentence be rewritten to something like:

Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in ancient Egypt beginning in Predynastic Egypt and in Libya..

The remainder of the lede paragraph can then be reworked to follow and expand on

Are the editors willing to work with a revised version of the article that begins by referring to Neitth as a North African goddess? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Neith)

@Robert McClenon I am very happy with your suggestion calling her a north african goddess and expanding on her origins later on in the article. I suggest instead of saying Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in Predynastic Egypt and in Ancient Libya as far back as 3200 BC.

I think my suggestion of calling her Egyptian-Libyan goddess is not bad either, since its more specific about north africa but it doesn't cause problem to owing to one origin of hers or another.

I hope you find my comment helpful

My problem with that is that is that Neith is specifically known, and usually referred to in the sources, as an Egyptian goddess. The Libyan peoples of this period did not use writing, so the evidence about Neith's worship comes almost entirely from Egyptian sources. It's not clear if she was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta at all periods, or if she was only worshipped by those Libyans who periodically settled in the Delta and adopted Egyptian customs. I don't see anything in Potymkin's sources that contradicts the latter possibility.

That doesn't mean she wasn't a Libyan deity, only that we don't know enough to say how extensive her presence in Libya was. Her presence in Egypt is the presence we can see in the evidence, and therefore it's the emphasis we find in the sources. A. Parrot (talk) 04:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue @Robert McClenon you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.

All in all my arguing party is bent on putting Neith as an Egyptian deity despite Ancient Egyptians themselves and UNESCO and all other archeologists calling her a Libyan deity. therefore the concession Egyptian-Libyan is more than a huge step on my part to resolve the issue that is clearly closed which is that the population concerned with the deity called her libyan and this is well confirmed by UNESCO and World History Encyclopedia which is sourced by institutuions like oxford university and other show the clear Libyan Origins of the deity. Potymkin (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Fourth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

One editor has written:

Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue, Robert McClenon, you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.

I don't understand. Please reread DRN Rule A.3.1, which says: Comment on content, not contributors. … The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, not to complain about other editors. I am not assessing complaints about other editors, because I am trying to find a way around any impasse. So, yes, I am focusing on finding a solution to the issue. If either editor wishes to withdraw from moderated dispute resolution, they may do so, because it is voluntary. However, any editor should read the boomerang essay before filing a report at a conduct forum.

I have suggested that the lede sentence describe Neith as a North African goddess who was worshiped in Egypt and Libya. The body of the article can discuss how scholars differ as to where her worship originated.

Are there any alternate suggestions for how to move forward? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Neith)

The key question for me is: is there an RS that says Neith was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta, not just Egyptianized Libyans living in it? If there is, I'd be entirely willing to describe her as an "Egyptian and Libyan" deity, regardless of where she may have originated. A. Parrot (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

There are at least two possible areas of content issues. The first is what the lede sentence should say. The second is what should be in the body of the article. The lede should summarize the most important points as stated by reliable sources, and any disagreements or uncertainties should either also be summarized in the lede, or should be avoided, so that details can be explored in the body of the article. If I understand correctly, the main issue in dispute is the lede. I think that this is a case where we can avoid making contentious statements in the lede. Does anyone disagree that she was a North African goddess? If there is any disagreement as to her origin, is there any need to raise that disagreement in the lede, as opposed to discussing it in the body of the article?

I am inviting each editor to provide their own second proposed version of the lede sentence to see if we can find something to agree on. I have proposed what I think should be a compromise, but would like to see any other proposals.

Are there any issues about what to say in the body of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Neith)

I believe that the suggestion Neith is a north African goddess is an acceptable way of putting her origins, but please to take the time to reflect on the suggestion Egyptian-Libyan as an alternative to North African, my intentions as well as my counterpart's I believe are to make wikipedia articles as less ambiguous as possible and reflecting on it further. it seems we are stuck on whether attributing Neith's origins to Libya, or the Libyan population of Sais. My counterpart's argument likes to call her Egyptian per her origins in Ancient Kemet is not misleading but simply ignores the information provided from my sources that both egyptologists and ancient egyptians consider Sais which was not yet part of Kemet as Libya and they referred to the place as Libya, calling her egyptian takes away from the contributions of the Libyans which I find unnecessary especially when both ancient Egyptians referred to her as "Libyan Neith" and Egyptologists talk extensively of her Libyan origins. the issue is most certainly settled when greek historians such as Hesiod, Appolodorus and Also herodotus who travelled to Ancient egypt also refer to Athena and Neith's origins from Libya, that which is born from Lake tritonis in North africa which is goddess of the libyans as goddess of wisedom, warfare and weaving.

-Neith is portrayed wearing a shuttle on her head as the goddess of weaving from Libya or wearing the Libyan feather on her head or both. the Libyan feather in ancient egypt is the symbol in reference for Libyans (people) and Libya.

-Ancient egyptians refer to Neith as Libyan Neith and goddess of the West

-Greeks Refer to Neith as Libyan

-Greeks refer to Athena as Neith as Also Libyan

-UNESCO confirms her Libyan origins

-Egyptologists refer to her as Libyan and also talk of her Libyan origins extensively. the inscription 'Libyan Neith in her Ka' (Ka = Soul) is used in multiple egyptologist articles.

-World History encyclopedia affirms Libyan Origins

therefore its undoubtable that Neith is Libyan in origin.

the egyptians however understood this very well and they themselves made an Egyptian variation of Neith that had Egyptian instead of Libyan characteristics and they called this new goddess Nut. I accept Nut the variation of Neith that is Egyptian made, But Neith herself is Libyan par excellence ! Neith's Appearance: Neith is portrayed as a regal and powerful goddess, with an elegant and imposing stature. Her skin might have a golden or sun-kissed tone, reflecting the desert environment of Libya.

Libyan Feather Headdress: Neith wears a tall, feathered headdress characteristic of Libyan iconography. The feathers are elongated and vibrant, with intricate patterns and details that symbolize the culture's connection to nature and the divine. The feathers may be depicted in colors such as gold, green, and blue, representing fertility, life, and the sky.

Hieroglyphs: Surrounding Neith, hieroglyphs are engraved or painted onto the headdress or her garments. These symbols represent war, protection, wisdom, and weaving—elements associated with Neith's divine role. The hieroglyphs are delicate yet prominent, ensuring they are a focal point of the imagery.

Traditional Garb: Neith is dressed in flowing garments made of linen, adorned with intricate patterns that blend Egyptian and Libyan designs. The fabric is rich in texture and color, with decorative elements that emphasize her divine status.

Symbols of Power: Neith holds a scepter or ankh, symbols of power and life, further reinforcing her status as a goddess of both war and wisdom.

This visual representation merges the cultural aspects of both Egypt and Libya, showcasing Neith as a goddess honored in both traditions. Potymkin (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

It's trivially true that Neith was a North African goddess, because Egypt and Libya are both in North Africa, but North Africa is a lot bigger than Egypt and Libya, so that level of generality is unhelpful. Any other encyclopedia would call her "an Egyptian goddess"—that is where she was undeniably worshipped and where the overwhelming majority of the evidence is from.

Throughout this dispute, I have been open to compromise on the wording if if I see either of two things: a source that clearly indicates that a Libyan origin for Neith is the consensus view in the field of Egyptology; or a source establishing that Neith was worshipped by Libyans in Libya, not Egypt. I have not seen either. (The assertion above that Sais was considered to be part of Libya at some point in Egyptian history is not sourced. I have no doubt that SAis was a point of contact between the two cultures, like the First Cataract region was a point of contact between Egyptian and Nubian culture, but I don't think that is enough to justify calling Neith Libyan.) A. Parrot (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

It appears that one editor wants to describe Neith as a Libyan goddess, and another editor wants to describe her as an Egyptian goddess. Is that correct?

An article about a goddess who was worshiped two thousand years ago or six thousand years ago is a historical article, and should be based on reliable historical sources. It is at this time more important how her origin has been described by twentieth-century scholars than by ancient scholars. It is true that the ancient sources were Egyptian and characterized her as Egyptian because the ancient written records are Egyptian. What do modern scholars say her origin was? I am now asking each editor to identify two reliable historical sources that support their view as to the origin of Neith.

Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors (Neith)

@Robert McClenon thank you for the follow up on Neith's origins.

Publications on the certainty of the Libyan origins of Neith are so numerous that the already provided sources of UNESCO and World History Encyclopedia have adopted it without question, indeed it is extremely important to show that 20th century and 21st century scholars have now agreed on her Libyan origins as a known fact, here, on top of the previously given sources, some more of the most well known and well cited publications on Neith (in English):

2020: Here the authors from this publication in 2020 exploring Lindsey Jackson an Egyptologist from the University of California, San Diego, Rovik, Patricia from the journal in Mediterranean Archeology unveils the origins of Neith and Athena from Libya as a goddess whose origins are of Libya

1987 : the official Catalogue of the Museum of Cairo also shows that the Delta in page 42 included Libya and hence Neith the Saite Deity is considered Libyan in that regard.

1945: The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland describes neith as the "Libyan Delta Goddess"

2011:this publication in the famous Ancient Egypt Magazine, 2011, Vol 11, Issue 6, p30 quotes Five Egyptian goddesses: their possible beginnings, actions, and relationships in the third millennium BCE by Susan Hollis mentions the Libyan Origins of this deity

1945 :"at Esna he had as consort the great Libyan goddess, Neith: a close likeness between Egyptians and Libyans"

2016: "There seems little reason to doubt that Neith was the same deity as the Libyan goddess whom Herodotus equates with Athene; and likely the same deity as Tanit who would become the principal goddess in later Carthage." - University of Manchester

here you note that the consideration of Neith as Libyan goddess is consistent throughout the 20th and 21st century, whether it is the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland publishing this in 1945, the Official Catalogue of Museum of Cairo in Egypt in 1987 or even *UNESCO* and the *Journal in Mediterranean Archeology* today. hereby confirming that Neith being considered Libyan isn't new age revisionism, but an already well-established concept backed up by high trust, high research institutes in each era. It is without doubt that modern scholars consider Neith as Libyan. Potymkin (talk) 14:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Barbara S. Lesko in The Great Goddesses of Egypt, University of Oklahoma Press, 1999 (p. 47): "Hermann Kees describes the northwestern part of the delta as being inhabited primarily by Libyans and points out that during the Old Kingdom Neith was characterized by Egyptians as Neith from Libya, 'as if she was the chieftainess of the neighboring people with whom the inhabitants of the Nile valley were at all times at war.' Other Egyptologists dispute this connection, however, and the first appearance of Neith is purely Egyptian."

• Richard H. Wilkinson in The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, Thames & Hudson, 2003 (p. 157): "Although she was sometimes called 'Neith of Libya', this reference may simply refer to the proximity of the Libyan region to the goddess's chief province in the west­ern Delta." A. Parrot (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Seventh statement by possible moderator (Neith )

It appears that there are sources that characterize her as Libyan and sources that characterize her as Egyptian. Is either editor willing to compromise either by calling her North African or by calling her Libyan-Egyptian? Does anyone have another idea? If there is an impasse, we will use an RFC to determine rough consensus of the community.

Are there any other questions at this time? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Another editor has joined the discussion. They are requested to read DRN Rule A, and to provide an answer to the question about the statement of her national origin. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors (Neith)

• hello @Robert McClenon , sorry for being inactive for a while I was a little busy, I would like to say that I am happy with @BrocadeRiverPoems 's final revision on the Neith page, he has demonstrated excellent ability to moderate in between. his statement that Neith is worshipped by both egyptians and Libyans without infringing on either sources or relevence of the publications is excellent. this would put the matter at rest. Please consult with the other side of the debate agrees or disagrees with the final revision to see if the matter could be put to rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Potymkin (talk • contribs) 21:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

There are not sources that call her Libyan. As User:BrocadeRiverPoems has demonstrated extensively on the talk page, there are sources that say she may have originated among Libyans in prehistoric times, and there are sources that say Libyans who lived in Egypt worshipped her in historic times. This is an important distinction: ancient polytheists worshipped whichever deity was relevant to them. Because polytheistic deities were closely tied to places (they were effectively considered to be members of the community that worshipped them), people who settled in a place would adopt the deities of that community, whether or not their ancestors had any connection to that deity. Calling Neith "Libyan" because some Libyan groups who settled around Sais worshipped her would be a bit like calling Set a Canaanite god because the Hyksos who settled at Avaris worshipped him, or calling Sobek a Greek god because the Greek colonists at Karanis worshipped him.

I'm more interested in the possibility that — setting aside the question of how she originated — Neith was worshipped in historic times by Libyans in Libya, i.e., the Western Desert. If sources say that she was, then I would be happy to describe Neith as an "Egyptian and Libyan goddess". But the sources Potymkin has produced don't seem to say that. A. Parrot (talk) 08:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I accept the rules. One thing I have learned in reading the multitude of sources provided on the matter is that there seems to be a confusion in what some of the sources are saying. For instance, one source speaks of a possible connection of this rainsender of the Auseans, and the Dea Coelestis of the Libyans in general, with a goddess of the western Egyptian Delta when discussing similarities between deities, specifically the similarities between Athena, Tanit and Neith, with Tanit being a Libyan Goddess, and thus a possible connection. The implication here is that Athena is also potentially derived from this Libyan Goddess, do we now go and refer to Athena as an ancient Libyan Goddess as well? A Greco-North-African Deity?

There seems to be some matter of debate in the scholarship itself about the theory that Neith originated from the Libyans as most sources that I've seen describe the theory as contested or lacking in evidence. Most, if not all, of the reliable sources which are provided to say Neith is of Libyan origin note that it is a theory and one which is not universally agreed upon.

Describing Neith as a North African deity is marginally acceptable, but I fear that this change is giving undue weight to what is appearing more and more like a WP:FRINGETHEORY.

I also wonder is it necessary to even declare Neith "of Egyptian origin" or "of Libyan origin" and why is it not acceptable to simply describe her as I have presently done so in the lead? That Neith is a Goddess that was worshipped by ancient Egyptians and Libyans? It is factually true and represented in the sources. Other articles such as Lamia stipulate what mythology they originated in, but do not declare an originating ethnic/national group, it focuses instead on the mythology, Tinjis says berber and greek mythology, Amunet, Hathor and Anput all just say "in ancient Egyptian Religion..." without saying specifically where it originated from. Likewise, Bastet uses the language a goddess of ancient Egyptian religion possibly of Nubian origin

I would propose as an alternative we adopt some of the language of the Bastet article, and write instead that Neith is:

a goddess in ancient Egyptian religion, possibly of Libyan origin.

This would represent that Neith's status in the Egyptian religion and note that there is a possible Libyan origin. This seems to be perfectly neutral language that provides due weight to both claims. This, to me, feels like a reasonable compromise. Brocade River Poems 11:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Eighth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

We have a compromise, reflected a statement of what the present-day reliable sources say about Neith. It appears that one editor agrees with the compromise. If the other editor also agrees, or does not disagree within 48 hours, I will close this dispute as resolved. If there is disagreement, we will use a Request for Comments.

Are there any other questions at this time? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Eighth statements by editors (Neith)

As of present, I have no further questions or anything to provide for discussion. I shall wait and see if the other editor endorses the compromise. --Brocade River Poems 21:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

"…goddess in ancient Egyptian religion, possibly of Libyan origin" is fine by me. A. Parrot (talk) 04:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Defense of Sihang Warehouse

– New discussion.

Filed by Adachi1939 on 21:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Defense of Sihang Warehouse (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Adachi1939 (talk · contribs)
• Wahreit (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Article originally said since 2005 that the IJA 3rd Division was engaged in the battle with no source. Japanese sources including official war monographs and contemporary military reports disproved this, noting the IJA 3rd Division and its subordinate forces were already outside Shanghai where the battle occurred. Article was updated around 2022 to reflect correct participating Japanese forces but user has been continually re-adding disproven force due to assumed "consensus." Almost all of their sources used to assert this are unable to verify the claim of IJA 3rd Division's involvement. There has only been one source where I could not check the cited work to verify. Main and one of the oldest sources used is Eric Niderost's "Chinese Alamo" article (which has no citations) published in December 2007. Niderost's article appears to have re-worded the false and at the time un-cited claim of the IJA 3rd Division's involvement from the 9 Aug 2007 or later revision of the wiki article: "The Sihang defenders faced the Japanese 3rd Division, considered one of the best of the Imperial Japanese Army. They also had mortar teams, artillery, and armor—probably Type 94 Te-Ke tankettes." Niderost, Dec 2007 "The Japanese 3rd Division (one of the most elite IJA divisions at the time)..." "...enjoyed air and naval superiority, as well as access to armoured vehicles, likely Type 94 Te-Ke tankettes, and also Type 89 mortars." 07:17, 9 August 2007 revision of the Defense of Sihang Warehouse Article.

This seems to be a case of citogenesis given the works cited to assert IJA 3rd Division's involvement all came after the IJA 3rd Division's inclusion in the wiki article in 2005 and some such as Stephen Robinson's 800 Heroes also cite Niderost's extremely suspicious article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse#the_3rd_division's_involvement_and_context_for_disputes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Shanghai#RfC_about_the_the_IJA_3rd_Division,_Defense_of_the_Sihang_Warehouse,_and_the_Battle_of_Shanghai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_449#RfC_Sihang_Warehouse_-_Questionable_English_Sources?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Citogenesis or not, low quality articles and publications such as the writeup from Niderost which cannot verify their claims should not be given equal weight to Japanese war monographs and contemporary military reports. It is evident the IJA 3rd Division was not involved and as such should not be credited as participating on the article. Niderost's article and others with the false claim of the IJA 3rd Divisions involvement should be marked as unreliable sources.

Summary of dispute by Wahreit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Defense of Sihang Warehouse discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - There has been extensive discussion on the article talk page, but none within the past three weeks. Resume discussion on the article talk page to see if agreement can be reached. I will leave this case request alone for 48 hours for resumed discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Sihang Warehouse)

Do the editors want moderated discussion? Please read DRN Rule A and indicate whether you want moderated discussion in accordance with these rules. The purpose of moderated discussion is the same as the purpose of discussion on an article talk page, which is to improve the content of the article. So please state concisely what you want to change in the article that another editor wants to leave the same, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:07, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I would greatly appreciate a moderated discussion in accordance with the rules.

My hope is to undo the recent changes by @Wahreit to the Japanese OOB as their sources not only contradict all of the Japanese-language reference material on the subject presented so far but also appear to be of questionable quality (web articles without citations etc). Adachi1939 (talk) 23:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

i would appreciate a moderated discussion too. what i want to maintain is an unbiased balanced weight across sources without original research in line with wikipedia's policies. i have taken the advice of other editors in delivering a fair representation of all sources at hand, including Japanese-language materials. i do not want an entire perspective of the battle eliminated because editor @Adachi1939 has personal grievances with the sources at hand (published peer-reviewed books, theses by military institutions). Wahreit (talk) 16:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

In your summary or follow-up could you please indicate (with a source) which of the works you've presented are peer-reviewed? A work being published does not necessarily mean it underwent the peer-review process. Adachi1939 (talk) 21:59, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Sihang Warehouse)

Please read Be Specific at DRN. Then please be specific in one of two ways. First, you may be specific about paragraphs in the article. Please identify one or two paragraphs in the article that you want to change, and how you want to change them, or one or two paragraphs that you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Second, you may be specific about questioning sources. If another editor is relying on sources that you think are unreliable, please identify the source, and we will post an inquiry at the Reliable Source Noticeboard asking about the source. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Sihang Warehouse)

The two most problematic paragraphs appear in the Japanese Order of Battle Section, stating the following:

A large number of sources record that the Warehouse was attacked by the Imperial Japanese Army's 3rd "Lucky" Division, including Western historians Eric Niderost, Stephen Robinson, and James Paulose. Historian Rana Mitter, one of the leading pioneers in Chinese historiography, has stated the Sihang Warehouse was assaulted by "thousands" of Japanese soldiers. British journalist Keane Arundel, who personally witnessed and reported on the battle, estimated over 40,000 Japanese soldiers were engaged in the combat around Sihang Warehouse.

There is some contention with Japanese sources, as the IJA 3rd Division's unit history published in 1967 notes the Division was in engaged in the Suzhou River Crossing Operation as its primary focus at the time. Period Japanese military reports record the IJA 3rd Division was positioned just west of the Warehouse (although not far away), with the SNLF (Japanese marine force) instead listed as the primary attackers on Sihang Warehouse. Senshi Sosho—the official war monographs of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy authored by the Japanese National Institute for Defense Studies— credit the Special Naval Landing Forces as the main participating force in the attack on the warehouse.

The issue with the second paragraph is how it has been rewritten, compared with what it stated earlier:

Article on 2024/08/24 before Wahreit's edits:

"...the IJA 3rd Division's unit history published in 1967 makes no mention of their involvement at Sihang Warehouse, instead noting the Division was in engaged in the Suzhou River Crossing Operation at the time. Period Japanese military reports similarly record the IJA 3rd DIvision as outside of Shanghai at the time (although not far away), with only SNLF listed in the attack. Senshi Sosho—the official war monographs of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy authored by the Japanese National Institute for Defense Studies—have no mention of IJA forces attacking Sihang Warehouse in their volumes covering the Second Sino-Japanese War, crediting naval landing forces as the sole participating force in the attack on the warehouse."

Wahreit has rewritten this section to make it seem Japanese sources at least suggest or leave room for the involvement of the IJA 3rd Division. However, this is not true, they are specific in mentioning the IJA 3rd Division was outside of Shanghai engaging in the Suzhou River Operation and that it was IJN SNLF troops who attacked and captured the Sihang Warehouse.

As for the first paragraph, the issue are the poor quality sources. I had already opened an RfC regarding them over a month ago but received zero responses. It should not be hard to go through these sources and see almost none include citations to back up their claims.
Two of the sources, "Niderost, Eric (December 2007). "Chinese Alamo: Last Stand at Sihang Warehouse"" and "Chen, Peter (2012). "Second Battle of Shanghai". World War II Database" are web articles with no citations at all. Perhaps Wikipedia has a lower standard, but from an academic standpoint an uncited web article with conflicting information should not be used to the allege the IJA 3rd Division was involved when all Japanese sources state they were not.
The source "Kubacki, Marta (2014). On The Precipice Of Change. University of Waterloo. p. 166." has a chart noting the IJA 3rd Division's involvement at Shanghai, however the author notes the data was "compiled from Wikipedia and Simon Goodenough’s War Maps." Circular references generally cannot be used.
One of the few actual books used is "Robinson, Stephen (2022). Eight Hundred Heroes. Exisle Publishing. p. 66." Not only does this work almost have no citations for the IJA 3rd Division's participation at Sihang Warehouse, the work even contradicts itself. On one page it cites "Hattori, Satoshi, with Dera [misspelled], Edward J., 'Japanese Operations from July to December 1937', The Battle for China." Hattori's essay actually states the IJA 3rd Division had already left Shanghai by October 26, 1937 (a day before the Defense of Sihang Warehouse in Shanghai occurred. Robinson also cites the aforementioned "Niderost, Eric (December 2007). "Chinese Alamo: Last Stand at Sihang Warehouse"" as well. So in short it relies on an uncited web article just like Wahreit has and misinterprets a scholarly essay which actually contradicts it. All of these sources brought to question above have failed to verify their claims, not once did they link back to a Japanese primary source or reliable official history/monograph.
The only source used by Wahreit which could possibly be reliable is "Paulose, James (2012). Three Months of Bloodshed: Strategy and Combat During the Battle of Shanghai. United States Military Academy West Point." Page 18 (frame 10) states the involvement of the IJA 3rd Division and cites "O’Connor, Critical Readings on Japan, 273-75." I have not been able to read O’Connor's work and verify if this work actually mentions the IJA 3rd Division. The volume is not available at any libraries in Japan as far as I know and it is too expensive to buy. Adachi1939 (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)