Talk:American Pie (song)/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Proposal To Drastically reduce Madonna content on page and Create new page just for Madonna cover

Despite the earlier discussions in 2009 and June/July 2013 that failed to reach concensus, it seems obvious to me that the Madonna version on the page should be drastically reduced (because it is "only" a cover and thus the level of content is clearly beyond what other pages have for "covers") as this content is deserving of an article of it's own. By itself, the Madonna version has 37 references, the version was top of the charts in a half dozen countries, and was certified gold or platinum in nearly as many. However, the very lead of this article indicates that this version is about the McLean song, not about the song in general. My recent attempt to BE BOLD by drastically reducing the content was rightly reverted by Indian:BIO. Since there is only one sentence devoted to the cover, it appears "to me" that most Madonna fans don't give it much thought either and thus this strengthens the case to move it to a completely new page as it clearly doesn't belong here or on the Madonna page (as I can only imagine what the editors on that page would think if this entire section was copied/pasted there - clear overkill).

Please chime in whether you Support or Oppose the 3-part proposal (NOTE: THIS IS A PACKAGE DEAL - I'M PROPOSING ALL THREE AT ONCE):

1) The removal of 95% of the Madonna content from this page

2) The creation of a separate page with the removed Madonna content

3) A brief summarization of Madonna content on this page as is typical for covers of popular songs (see Let It Be, Mack The Knife, The Devil Went Down to Georgia, Hotel California, etc, etc, etc)

Ckruschke (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

Oppose all three options. There have been 3 discussions on this already and it should now be accepted that the guidelines, precedent and commonsense say everything about a song (including this one) should remain together. --Richhoncho (talk) 03:45, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to vote on my own recomendation, but you are wrong on all three counts Richhoncho. Not only has there not been concensus, the issue has been bandied about for years without resolution. The only "concensus" has been that we can't agree on if or how the page should be changed, so we may as well leave it. That not only doesn't imply guidelines, precedent, and/or commonsense, it screams that there has been a lack of all three.

I'm not trying to shout you down - please feel free to disagree with my proposal - that's why I started the thread. However, it's disingenuous to couch your argument as if I'm BEATING A DEAD HORSE... Ckruschke (talk) 19:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

Support all three options. Madonna doesn't belong on this page at all except as an alternate link. Another proposal would be to rename this article as "American Pie (Madonna cover)" and provide a link to "American Pie (Don McLean original)". -BB — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.168.32.26 (talk) 16:54, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. As reference, please look at the wiki article for the songs Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen song), Hurt (Johnny Cash song), All Along the Watchtower, I Will Always Love You. In each case the cover version did very well. The amount of info for the cover version in those song article's is equal to (and in the case of I Will Always Love You, far exceeds) the Madonna coverage in this one. Richhoncho has already pointed this out. This article is about the song, not just Don McLean's version, but ALL versions. In each of these cases, the cover version was more popular on the charts than the original. That's not the case for Let It Be, Hotel California and The Devil Went Down to Georgia. Dkspartan1 (talk) 14:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Support. —Dromioofephesus (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Support. I have supported this since Day 1. The McLean song is what the article is about. Madonna should only be mentioned as a side note. Not as the main thrust of the article. --Manway 16:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Oppose McLean's song did not gain the popularity commercially that the Madonna song did. They have equal justification to have equal amount of content being distributed in the article. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 01:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

In Rolling Stone's greatest songs of all time, McLean's version came in at number 5. Madonna's version didn't even make a ripple.

McLean's version was number one in January 1972 for four weeks on the Hot 100. It was also the number 3 song of the year. Madonna's version was number one of the Dance Charts, but barely cracked top 30 on the Hot 100. It didn't even place in Billboard's year end top 100.

The American Pie album was number one on the Billboard Album Charts.

The RIAA recently voted "American Pie" number five on its list of all-time greatest songs:

1) "Over the Rainbow" by Judy Garland

2) "White Christmas" by Bing Crosby

3) "This Land is Your Land" by Woody Guthrie

4) "Respect" by Aretha Franklin

5) "American Pie" by Don McLean

So tell me who had the higher charting and more popular version? I will challenge that statement. Regards, --Manway 04:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I said worldwide, US is not the world. McLean's version did not hold a candle to the immense popularity Madonna's had. McLean's only reached number one in the US and was a success there. I'm not going to delve into a fan war here, but I call a spade a spade. McLean's version has immense critical positive feedback there are no doubts about it. The numerous listing at the all time trajectories are enough to fool-proof that. Worldwide commercially, Madonna shits on McClean. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:05, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Since when Wikipedia has a policy to allow users removing notable information. Why don't you propose to reduce Whitney content on "I Will Always Love You" as well? Madonna's version is way more commercially successful than McLean's. Instead of complaining, and instead of reducing Madonna content, why don't you work yourself improving McLean content on this page? Bluesatellite (talk) 03:19, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Your objection would be valid if we were suggesting deletion. We're not. We are suggesting moving it to its own page with a link on the McLean page. --Manway 04:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Moot discussion then Manway. The separation of cover versions from their parent articles have been deemed unworthy in a previous consensus. you cannot just try to achieve a consensus here and then leave it at that without a precedence. I suggest you find the correct avenue for doing this then. WP:SONGS should be the avenue. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:05, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think the problem from the very beginning is about the WP:UNDUE weight: Madonna version is described more than McLean origial. Ironically, some of you believe that we should reduce Madonna content (like 90%... really?) in order to make McLean's more dominant on this page. But actually the case is that it must be McLean content should be improved. Moving Madonna version to its own page is not allowed as long as the article lenght is still accomodated in one page, see WP:SPLIT. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Correct Bluesatellite, none of these folks are interested in expanding McLean's version even when I suggested my sandbox where I had started work. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This is really annoying.

Madonna did a fairly good cover of *less than half* of the song this article is about. She gets the picture, and more than half of the prose.

What is the matter with Wikipedia coverage of pop culture?

The picture should be removed, prose about *the song* should be expanded (it's a significant song, and this is a short article), and prose about Madonna's cover should be reduced by about half. My opinion, it's just too bad that consensus in pop culture seems to lean towards ephemera.

MrDemeanour (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2014 (UTC)