Talk:Clave (rhythm)

Mento

This instrument and pattern also seem to be extremely common in Jamaican mento. Somebody find a source! 75.49.251.170 (talk) 10:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Image name

Why don't you just save a correct rumba cleve image under a slightly different name and link from there? Mikkalai 19:43, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

After much faffing about, I think it's fixed now. --Camembert

Son Clave Midi File

The rhythm in the midi file associated with the "Son clave" does not match up with the rhythm represented in the image associated with the "Son clave." Someone who knows more about the topic should fix one or the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danreitz (talk • contribs) 05:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure where the MIDI went : found Mark Wessels Publications Presents with helpful MIDI for those of us that don't read '[tadpoles]' ! Could be a good external ref ?

--195.137.93.171 (talk) 07:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Images

I think the current images used to describe the various clave rhythms are a bit confusing for two reasons:

1) As the clave is a rhythmic pattern it's not really interesting which tone is being played and for how long it's being held. Because of this I think standard musical notation is an unnecessarily complex way of describing it for the unknowing.

2) Sticking to standard musical notation the current note and rest durations seem a bit out of place to me. The external article An Introduction to Clave Theory has a version that I feel is the most correct way of describing the clave with standard notation.

The same article also has a good example of an alternate way of graphically representing the clave which I believe is much easier to understand for those who have not studied standard musical notation.

Could someone make an image like that, or maybe construct one using HTML tables?

It's also possible to explain the clave in basic text as done in the current version of salsa (music), using "pre"-tags like this:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
*  *  *   * *

...but images are always nice :)

- Wintran 17:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You make an important point here and it comes from the fact that the Cubans stubbornly hold that the full clave is played over just one bar, not two (as portrayed on the page with only four beats). Whereas the rest of the world sees it differently as you portray it in your diagram, as being over two bars. Your portrayal is how a dancer to Salsa music might count out a 3-2 clave. Another way to see it is: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4. As a Latin percussionist, I feel it is a moot point because rhythm is hierarchical in nature. The way it is heard is very much as two bars held together by the phrasing pattern (any of the claves). This is why dancers and even musicians tend dance in a back-and-forth motion to Latin music. Maybe a comment to this effect might enrich the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.166.228.159 (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Edits moved to talk page

Edit by User:66.248.34.52 at 08:19, 19 October 2005.

(Possible exceptions would be all those of Yoruba-Congo descent outside of Cuba. Most slaves brought to English controlled colonies such as Jamaica or the future USA were from what is now Nigeria. The music of these Calabali is noticeably different from the music of Cuba, suggesting that Nigerian origin is not the key difference between Cuban music and other types of black music.) Because the those of slave descent from NIgeria are newer they ar

Reasons for moving: Feels a bit out of place, and end sentence is not finished.

- Wintran 12:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Sample

The son clave rhythm

I knocked this up in a few minutes. I don't claim it's good, but if you agree it's better than nothing I'll move it on the body of the article.

James barton 13:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent update

I Removed part about Brazilian music being largely clave-less, and added examples of clave patterns in traditional Brazilian music. Even though clave is played on claves, it doesn't mean that if it is played on another intrument it is not a clave.

In the section about cross cultural pollination between Louisianan musicians and Cuban musicians, the author makes an implication that clave is a direct result of this communication between the US and Cuba. In reality, African Americans retained many musical structures from their african descendents, including clave. It was not necessarily a result of contact with Cuba.

Also edited "This is a fundamental difference between the Cuban conception of clave and other rhythmic timelines found in African and African-Diaspora music, which often simply mark recurring cycles of time." in regards to "Depending on the style and musicians involved, the clave may play a role from a simple rhythmic decoration to an elaborate structural framework upon which the rest of the music must relate." While the latter is true, the former is not. Hint: Bembé, Candomblé, music of the Fon, etc... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.48.91.222 (talk) 07:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Rubbish!!

The rhythm came from the eastern Meditteranean, not any "West Africans." The only reason music from there has clave is because the Moors brought it with them when they invaded a section of NorthWest SSAfrica. As for Louisiana/Cuba, there was a large amount of contact and that is where the commonality of clave came from. There were no "African-Americans," and the slaves merely imitated what they heard from others, adding a few flourishes here and there. Don't forget that the slaves were not pure SSAfrican either! More feel-good lies are not needed.JBDay 21:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there has always been cross fertilisation and sharing of musical ideas, and indeed is a must. This has been demonstrated in the 20th Century. Respectfully, some of your other assertions need references to strengthen your argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.135.163 (talk) 07:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal of the above comment: Your comment is based on cultural jingoism and is completely uninformed by the facts or any musical knowledge. These rhythms, like harmony, are based the human response to ratios of the first prime numbers. They are not linked to any culture. If they have any original source then I would say that it is from the Ancient World (Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome) - not the middle east of the seventh century. The Ancient World had a strong connection to the African continent. Arab cultures that swept across the Mediterranean region were "anti-music" (which can be seen today by all the dumbek rhythm names which are derived from pejorative Arab names for local cultures and peoples). I play both Latin percussion and the dumbek so I know what I am talking about. Although dubeck rhythms have phrasing pattern within them, I have never found either the Son or Rumba clave in any rhythm, and I know over 70 rhythms. The only resemblance I can find is with Chiftetelli or Tiftetelli (which is not middle eastern in origin but from Ancient Greece) which resembles the Yambu clave. Your comment that Latin rhythms don't come from Africa is so wrong it is laughable. These rhythms only exist in the New World where slaves were brought. The evidence of pagan African culture is EVERYWHERE in Latin music! The Cascara that I play on the timbales comes from the Cata that is played in Rumba. And the Cata is directly from pagan Africa. So you're the one who is full of rubbish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.166.228.159 (talk) 09:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Fact tag to West African statement

I've added the fact tag after the word "West" in this sentence:

Clave (pronounced clah-vay) is a rhythmic pattern or timeline which has its roots in West African music and was developed in Cuba.

This is because the clave rhythm is also found in Central Africa. I think it would be more accurate state that clave has its roots in Sub-Saharan African music.

I was also tempted to add a fact tag after "developed in Cuba." If you listen to traditional African music, you'll probably agree that the clave rhythm is quite well-developed. Perhaps "populararized by Cuban music" would be more accurate. DBlomgren 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't want to start a fight here, but

The image of sheet music displayed on the page is rumba clave, not son clave. The clave for rumba Guaguanco is always played in a 3-2 pattern, and the clave for son is played in 2-3. The accents are different between popular and folkloric music (for instance, in a folkloric pattern you might here, it can go: 12-1-12 Listen to Tito Puente's Pa' Los Rumberos, even though it is pop music he is using a folkloric clave, and you will see what I am talking about). It is true that the clave is different for rumba columbia, but this is also different for yambu clave. So, in truth, the rumba clave is primarily meant for Guaguanco. You might here a folkloric recording (Los Munequitos de Matanzas is a good place to start) and someone might be playing a Guaguanco clave to a yambu, but essentially, they are all different. Cancionista78 01:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)Cancionista78

Nope. In Cuban rumba (the music dance and drum art form) is ALWAYS considered to be played in 3-2 form, never in 2-3. An error in the article says that Guaguanco is played with the Son. Nope again. It is the Rumba clave that is played with Guaguanco. Both the Son, Rumba and Yambu claves are played with the Yambu form of Cuban Rumba. Always in the 3-2 form and there is no change in the accents (what does that mean anyway?) The only time that the 2-3 form is played is in Latin music that has an actual chord progression forcing the music to start on the two side. It should be noted that the only difference between the Son and the Rumba clave is the placement of the "Ponche" note (third tap on the 3-2 form). Check Penalosa is you doubt it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.166.228.159 (talk) 10:06, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Some suggestions for cleaning up

First of all, this passage is erroneous and off topic, so I am going to delete it:

"It should be noted, however, that whether or not there was any continuous exchange between musicians in Louisiana and Cuba, African musical traditions in the United States are very much a part of the musical heritage of the African American culture since the first slaves landed in the US."

The first slave were brought by the Portuguese and Spaniards to Brazil and Cuba, respectively, not to the US. The first American slaves landed in Virginia in 1619. Also, I think it is unnecessary for a discussion of Clave to mention anything about the vitality of African American culture—that should be in a discussion of African American music.

---

Also, I would suggest that someone redo all the clave diagrams so that they are consistent. Give all variations, not just those that are "correct". We can write descriptions of how each is used and if it is authentic. The fact that someone believes it to exist in a certain way makes it worth discussing on the page.

I think it is also a good idea to use standard notation and some form of grid notation for each example, since this seems to be contentious with some people.

---

Lastly, the debate about which directions are more correct for certain styles should be incorporated into the text. I personally have heard every combination. Son clave in folkloric music and both directions of rumba clave in pop music (Isaac Delgado does this a lot). 96.52.9.182 (talk) 01:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Clave instrument

I don't think a discussion of the instrument should be on this page. There is a separate page for claves as an instrument. Why not just provide a disambiguation link to that and let this page be about the rhythm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.167.20 (talk) 16:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't Gripe on the Discussion Page

Some people below have posted comments that they disagree with the content of the Clave page. Don't post that stuff here—if you have conflicting information, incorporate it into a section of the article, making sure to cite your sources in proper academic style. There's no point in griping. This article should reflect as many points of view about clave as possible, as long as they are presented fairly and with proper citations. 12:36 UTC, 21 Jul 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.163.133 (talk) 00:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Where should one gripe? Hyacinth (talk) 01:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Silliest idea of the day. People don't use discussion pages enough. You seem to think that anonymous edit wars in the article are better than "gripes", as you call them, on the discussion page. I don't see any gripes above, but I wonder if all the article improvements suggested here have been made. Ortolan88 (talk) 21:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect 6/8 clave pattern

The 6/8 pattern shown in the article is not the correct one used for Abakua, Columbia etc. styles. The third note should appear on beat 6 of the first bar not beat 5. The pattern shown is very rarely found in Afro-Cuban music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.171.95.146 (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2009

rhythmic positions that fit neatly

"rhythmic positions that do not fit neatly into Western music notation" - is there another form of music notation into which they do fit neatly? If not, the word Western is superfluous. (If there is another kind of notation that they fit neatly into, we need to know about it.) 213.122.19.38 (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll take out the reference to "western"--Dr clave (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Lead missing

The article does not have a lead section. "The lead section (also known as the introduction or the lead) of a Wikipedia article is the section before the table of contents and first heading. The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points..."

There is currently no section before the table of contents, only a pronunciation and literal definition of "clave" as "code", "key", or "keystone". There is no context for the pronunciation or the definition and the definition is not of "clave rhythm", the terms use in this article. Hyacinth (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I hope I have remedied that problem now.--Dr clave (talk) 01:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Much better now. Hyacinth (talk) 10:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

But it doesn't say what clave is. To say something is "used as" or "used in" does not tell us what it is. (Consider an analogy: "A steering wheel / transmission / engine is used in driving a car." Any of those is correct but not informative. 137.159.184.234 (talk) 02:28, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

The symmetry of clave

I think this section should be removed. I think the original writer may have read some related academic papers online (by Toussaint for example), but the entry here is weak and undeveloped. It probably belongs on the Polyrhythm or Music of Africa page.--Dr clave (talk) 19:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

It should be deleted. For example it claims that 3:2 approximates the Golden ratio. However, 1.5 ≠ 1.618 closely or in any significant manner. Though 2 & 3 are found consecutively in the Fibonacci sequence they are so low as to make this relationship meaningless without continuing the sequence. Worse, the section as a whole doesn't describe any symmetry in the clave rhythm or anything else. Hyacinth (talk) 10:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Issue of notation and counting

Hi [Hyacinth], I disagree with your counting scheme in the depiction of tresillo in divisive structure. The proper representation in standard notation would be using the 2/4 time signature. I think you changed my counting scheme because all clave examples on the page are written as two measures of 4/4. Next week I'll generate some examples showing clave in a single measure. Notice that the standard pattern example you put up on the "bell pattern' page shows the figure in a single measure. In contrast, the "campana" part you put up on the bell pattern page is in two measures. This issue of whether to depict clave and related patterns in a single measure or two measures should probably be addressed. I'll be gone this weekend, but hope to address this issue early next week.--Dr clave (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I changed your counting scheme because you can't count abstract symbols. You can say syllables such as "an" or "and", but not symbols such as "+". Hyacinth (talk) 10:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The tresillo is shown in one measure, so not only are these separate issues, but I don't know what the problem with either is. Hyacinth (talk) 10:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the correct count: is "1 e and a 2 e and a"

you changed it to: "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and."

If you notice where you put the main beats in your 6/8 count (two main beats), the same main beats apply to the duple-pulse forms.

There are only two main beats, not four main beats under tresillo. I need to change the musical examples in standard notation though, so that they conform with the "X" and count system we are discussing. There needs to be some mention of the two ways clave is written in standard notation (4/4 and cut-time) and the confusion amongst musicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr clave (talk • contribs) 13:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

See meter (music). There are only two main beats in any duple meter, including 4/4. Hyacinth (talk) 13:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Going only slightly into the rhythmic structure of our music we find that all its melodic design is constructed on a rhythmic pattern of two measures, as though both were only one, the first is antecedent, strong, and the second is consequent, weak.—Grenet (1939)

• [With] clave. . .the two measures are not at odds, but rather, they are balanced opposites like positive and negative, expansive and contractive or the poles of a magnet.—Amira and Cornelius (1992: 23, 24)

Current quotes in the article, slightly trimmed, emphasis mine. Hyacinth (talk) 14:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I take your point about the text and written examples referring to two measures. I was hoping to avoid addressing the issue of notation on the clave page, but I now think it's inevitable.

Concerning the count, that ought to be evident when tresillo and clave are written within the correct time signature.--Dr clave (talk) 19:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

3-2 son and rumba clave in simple and compound meter variants.

Wikipedia doesn't even allow one to upload images in .TIFF file format, Wikipedia:Creation and usage of media files: "As of March 2010[update], the following file types may be uploaded: png, gif, jpg/jpeg, xcf, pdf, mid, ogg/ogv/oga, svg, djvu." See also Wikipedia:IUP#FORMAT. Hyacinth (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Considering the sources show and describe two measures, do you have a source that shows or describes one measure, and does that source say why they it matters? Hyacinth (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

ISSUES OF NOTATION

Hi Hyacinth, I’ve included some citations to back up what I say here. The issue of notation matters a great deal in regards to clave and other rhythms of sub-Saharan origin because these rhythms exist within a specific metric structure. That structure should be conveyed by the time signature and by the choice of the notehead value used for the regular subdivisions. For example, if the regular subdivisions are sixteenth-notes, clave should be written in a single measure of 4/4, or two measures of 2/4. If on the other hand, the regular subdivisions are written as eighth-notes, then the clave may be written in two measures, but it should be two measures of 2/2, not two measures of 4/4 as shown on the Wikipedia clave page. Either way, the clave pattern spans four main beats. In 4/4 the four main beats are quarter-notes and in 2/2 they are half-notes.

There are two main branches of clave theory. The first branch originated with the practical necessities of working Cuban musicians. In the early 1800s the habanera (Cuban contradanza) was developed. The habanera is based on the single-celled tresillo and its variants. Therefore, the music was written in 2/4 (regular subdivisions written as sixteenth-notes). In the 1880s the danzon emerged, which is based on the two-celled clave pattern. Clave was written in two measures of 2/4 in the early 20th century (Mauleon Salsa Guidebook 1993 :51). Today, Cuban popular music is written mostly in a single measure of 4/4, with the regular subdivisions written as sixteenth-notes (Moore Beyond Salsa Piano; The Cuban Timba Revolution v. 1 2010: 57).

When Afro-Cuban jazz (Latin jazz) was created in NYC during the 1940s clave was represented in cut-time, with the regular subdivisions written as eighth-notes. However, the 4/4 time signature was used instead of 2/2. This error has led to the widespread misunderstanding in North Americas and later Europe that there are eight main beats under clave rather than four.

Some contemporary books on Cuban popular music use the correct time signature when representing clave in two measures, for example: Congas and Tumbadoras (Sulbruck 1999) and Conversations in Clave (Hernandez 2000) use eighth-notes as the regular subdivisions in cut-time. The three-volume Tomas Cruz Conga Method series (2004) and the eight-volume series Beyond Salsa Piano; The Cuban Timba Revolution (2010) by Kevin Moore use sixteenth-notes and 4/4.

The other main branch of clave theory comes from the field of ethnomusicology, beginning in 1920. The area of study was the music of Central and West Africa. Focus on Afro-Cuban music came later. Initially the accents in African rhythm were misunderstood as indicators of meter, rather than the counter-metric events they actually are. This led to much confusion about how to write the music. This relates to the three different written versions of the "6/8 clave" shown on the Wikipedia clave page.

In the 1970s Ghanaian master drummer/scholar C.K. Ladzekpo explained the correct structure of "clave" and other African-based rhythms. The first published work explaining the correct metric structure of African rhythm was David Locke’s 1982 article "Principles of Off-Beat Timing and Cross-Rhythm in Southern Ewe Dance Drumming," in the Society for Ethnomusicology Journal. Locke’s article settled the issue. Subsequently, even African music scholar Simha Arom abandoned his central theory that sub-Saharan music was poly-metric. The books and articles of Kofi Agawu have delved further into the issue of African music’s metric structure by building upon the works of Ladzekpo and Locke. In 1998 Eugene Novotney explained the generating principle of "clave" and its variants in The Three Against Two Relationship as the Foundation of Timelines in West African Musics.

In these works of ethnomusicology "clave" and its variants are depicted in a single measure of 4/4 (duple-pulse structure) or 12/8 (triple-pulse structure). That’s because "clave" and other two-celled timelines are considered to be the musical period, the basic musical phrase. If one wishes to explain the structure of clave, it is best to depict the pattern in a single measure so that the four underlying main beats are obvious. In other words, it should be shown as 1, 2, 3, 4 not 1, 2, 1, 2. As mentioned earlier, writing clave in a single measure is a contemporary practice in Cuban popular music. There is also a growing trend of writing clave in one measure in Ethnomusicological writings on Afro-Cuban folkloric music. For example, in the first edition of Bata Rhythms from Matanzas, Cuba (Summers 2007) clave was shown in two measures. In the second edition (2008) clave is shown in a single measure. Nolan Warden’s Afro-Cuban Traditional Music and Transculturation (2007) shows clave in a single measure.

On the Wikipedia clave page, the clave pattern should be introduced in a single measure without mention of 3-2/2-3. 3-2/2-3 is primarily a North American concept and does not apply to the pattern’s folkloric origins or its use in contemporary Cuban popular music (see quotes on Wikipedia’s clave page). Clave should be shown in two measures of cut-time when the 3-2/2-3 concept is introduced later in the article. Some explanation should be given as to why clave is written in these two ways.

I’ve tried to avoid some of these issues, attempting to integrate my text with what was already there. However, my thinking now is that all misleading information should be removed. Here are some other issues I think need attending to.

BOSSA NOVA "CLAVE"

Basically North American musicians misinterpreted the bossa nova snare rim pattern as a clave (guide-pattern). It is not. There are no published works on Brazilian music that make that claim. Putting the pattern into the 3-2/2-3 context (Wikipedia’s clave page), further confuses the matter.

THE STANDARD PATTERN

The standard pattern is shown in a single measure, but it is written in an additive form on Wikipedia’s clave page. It’s best to show it as eighth-notes, with eighth-note rests, so that all twelve pulses (subdivisions) are represented. The eighth-notes should be grouped in sets of three.

.PNG

I finally figured out how to generate png graphics. However, they are way larger than the written examples shown on the clave page. Can you suggest how I can make the image smaller? I have not been able to find out how to do that. Thanks--Dr clave (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

If you're using Sibelius see: User:Hyacinth/Sibelius how to#Producing images. Hyacinth (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Alas, I use Finale, I notice that you have placed one of my examples (son and rumba clave) and the size is fine. Did you have to format the size or did it appear in that size automatically?--Dr clave (talk) 21:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

TYPES OF CLAVE PATTERNS

Another issue I forgot to mention is the different types of claves. "There are just two claves—son clave and rumba clave"—Ignacio Berroa Mastering the Art Afro-Cuban Drumming (1996: VHS). You can see this in my example above which you placed in this discussion page. I think it would be helpful to mention that the triple-pulse form of rumba clave is referred to by many North Americans as "6/8 clave", but it's misleading to say that there are three types of clave patterns, as this Wikipedia article does.--Dr clave (talk) 22:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Issue of notation and counting THE SHORT ANSWER

>> Hyacinth: ". . . do you have a source that shows or describes one measure, and does that source say why they it matters?"

Hyacinth, Sorry about the long-winded answer, which may have not been the easiest to follow. Here are some quotes that address your question:

“In a complex interaction of beat schemes of varying rhythmic motions, the human mind normally seeks a focal point. [. . .] This dominant beat scheme is considered the main beat because of its strong accents in regular recurrence that pervade and regulate the entire fabric. . . in practice, the beat scheme of four units is the most commonly used. At any given tempo, the rhythmic motion of this beat scheme is the most moderate (not too slow or fast) and the most convenient as a focal point”—Ladzekpo (1995: webpage).

"Most examples of African musics, especially musics associated with dance can be transcribed into metric schemes in Western notation in 4/4 meter (for music with binary subdivisions) or 12/8 meter (for music with ternary subdivisions). [. . .] In standard terminology, each . . . metric scheme . . . consists of four beats per measure—Novotney (1996: 72). [There is a written example shown with this text of a measure of 4/4 (16 subdivisions) and a measure of 12/8 (12 subdivisions). Each measure has four main beats.--Dr clave (talk) 06:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The answer to "why" was, I guess, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. Hyacinth (talk) 16:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

None of that gives a reason for why one would notate clave one way or another. Nor does it appear to even discuss Afro-Cuban music. The above reads like the standard introductions to European music notation for those unfamiliar. Hyacinth (talk) 16:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The above quotes state that African rhythm is set in a scheme of four beats, and Novotney states that in Western notation it is a measure of four main beats (expressed in either 4/4 or 12/8). You asked for a source that "shows or describes one measure." There is a lot more text, I just quoted where they mention four beat in a single measure.

Referring to the clave pattern, David Locke (1982: 220-221) says: "The recurring bell pattern establishes the basic musical period or time span and the beats divide that span into equal divisions…four beats to each cycle of the bell pattern."

The underlying assumption is that a measure represents the "beat scheme" (Ladzekpo), "metric scheme" (Novotney), or "the basic musical period or time span" (Locke). Beat counts are limited to a single measure, so each measure contains clave over 1, 2, 3, 4.

As to "why" this is, it has to do with the accents of the dancer's steps in relation to the music. There are four steps per clave cycle. From the musician's perspective, you tap your foot four times per clave.

Or, from the perspective of music theory, all of the clave-based rhythms are generated from proportional interaction, specific cross-rhythmic ratios, the most important being 3:2, 4:3 and 3:4. All of those cross-rhythmic ratios are understood within the context of four main beats. Novotney's The 3:2 Relationship as the Foundation of Timelines in West African Musics covers this.

Since a lot of North Americans who play Cuban music write clave in two measures of cut-time, they refer to the half-note "pulses" underlying the pattern. From Rebeca Mauleon's 101 Montunos (1999: 6): "As with all of the clave patterns, it is recommended that the reader sing or clap the pattern while tapping a half-note pulse pattern." There are four half-note pulses (beats) per clave when it is written in cut-time.

A thorough explanation of clave ought to briefly address the different ways in which the pattern is notated and counted. As soon as I am able to link music examples at the correct size, I'll be up for taking that on.--Dr clave (talk) 06:05, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

At the end you wrap up by describing how conventional practice is not to notate in one measure, and at the beginning you fail to give one clear reason. For example, because there are four beats could be a reason to notate it using four measures. How about a simple quote from a source. Something like, "The clave pattern should be notated using one measure in 4/4." (then the source can be full of it, but see WP:V) Hyacinth (talk) 06:19, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying. I don't think I can find a statement as concise as "The clave pattern should be notated using one measure in 4/4." I will search for the best quotes I can though.

I think I can at least in part, explain this issue by citing the notation practices of the prominent ethnomusicologists (both African and Afro-Cuban music scholars) and the prominent Cuban musicians and music educators. It would be best probably if I limit the use of words like "should," and be as neutral as possible in explaining the two main ways in which clave is notated and the thinking behind each method. The thing I would definitely say is correct is the underlying four main beats. Giving legitimacy to an idea of eight or six main beats would be a disservice to Wikipedia readers.--Dr clave (talk) 07:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

So pretend I asked you to find a quote something like, "The clave pattern is generally notated using one measure in 4/4." Hyacinth (talk) 21:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Examples

Examples of various notation variations with the patterns of strong and weak beats implied by the time signatures indicated above the notated rhythm. > = strong, u = weak, (>) = secondary strong beat. X marks aspects of notation which are unsatisfactory according to Dr clave.

• 
  3-2 son clave, in 4/4
  quarter = 120
  X theoretical number of pulses = 8
  X number of measures = 2
• 
  3-2 son clave, in 2/4
  quarter = 60
  theoretical number of pulses = 4
  X number of measures = 2
• 
  3-2 son clave, in one measure of 2/4
  X quarter = 30
  X theoretical number of pulses = 2
  number of measures = 1
• 
  3-2 son clave, in 4/8
  eighth = 120
  theoretical number of pulses = 8
  X number of measures = 2
• 
  3-2 son clave, in one measure of 4/4
  quarter = 60
  theoretical number of pulses = 4
  number of measures = 1
• 
  3-2 son clave, in four measures of 4/4
  X quarter = 240
  theoretical number of pulses = 16
  X number of measures = 4
• 
  3-2 son clave, in 2/2 (alla breve)
  half = 120
  theoretical number of pulses = 8
  X number of measures = 4
• 
  3-2 son clave, in 8/8
  eighth = 120
  X theoretical number of pulses = 8
  number of measures = 1

Hyacinth (talk)

By the way, the dynamic of strong and weak beats found in Western music does not apply to sub-Saharan rhythm. The strong beats are 4 and 1, where the clave pattern coincides with main beats. --Dr clave (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The number of [tangential] claims you are making is beginning to be quite large. Hyacinth (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and I hope that I am not becoming too tiresome, or irritating. That is not my intention. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but while I have not always been able to find concise quotes, I have backed up all my assertions by citing the most respected authorities on the subject.

This is the most concise quote I could find concerning the application of "strong" and "weak" beats to clave as you did above:

"It must be noted that, when speaking in terms of all musics, this [strong beat and weak beat], substructure of hierarchical strengths does not always exist. [ . . . ] Although, as stated earlier, most African musics can be transcribed into metric schemes that would normally be represented in Western notation as 4/4 or 12/8 meter, the beats carry with them no implication of hierarchical value"—Dr. Eugene Novotney The 3:2 Relationship as the Foundation of Timelines in West African Musics (1998: 87).

In African-based music the strength or weakness of a particular beat depends upon the particular pattern the beats are in relation to. You are probably familiar with the concept of tension/resolution in terms of the clave pattern. The clave pattern resolves on the last stroke, which coincides with beat four. Beat four is a strong beat because that is where the rhythmic tension of resolves, where clave is grounded or anchored. You show the fourth main beat of the clave pattern to be a weak beat.

"Each stroke of the clave has a physical attribute . . . the first and last strokes are played with the first and last beats. This gives them the feeling of being bookends or anchors"—Conor Guilfoyle Odd Meter Clave (2006: 11).

OK, as I prepared to paste my reply in here, I saw that you added "tangential" to qualify your comment. I take your point. I’ll try to do a better job of staying on task and limit my digressions.--Dr clave (talk) 23:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Embedding Graphics

I created the graphic above of son clave and rumba clave. It is the correct size in relation to the page. When I embed it into the article just now though it is extremely large. Any file I embed is way too large. Why?--Dr clave (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Extended image syntax (and the less informative Wikipedia:Picture tutorial)

Specifically: "the syntax for displaying an image is...[[Image:Name|Type|Border|Location|Alignment|Size|Link|alt=Alt|Caption]]

Size[:] 'Widthpx'.... Scale the image to be no greater than the given width [550px used to be the maximum allowed to accommodate archaic screen sizes (WP:ImageSize)]...."

However, the quickest way to use links, tables, or images is to simply copy how you see others being displayed. The drawback is that without actually learning the syntax one is copying and pasting blind, so to speak. The best way to test out various options is the "show preview" button. Hyacinth (talk) 16:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I will continue my attempts to learn how to do it.--Dr clave (talk) 06:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I was unable to get the size correct using the syntax. I was probably doing something wrong, but I spent hours attempting it. However, I able to copy the "son and rumba clave" example from the talk page to the clave page. After that, I was able to link to examples with an OK size. They are a bit larger than the examples in the rest of the article, but they are not too large. Thanks for your help.--Dr clave (talk) 16:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The least you need is [[Image:NAME|###px]] with NAME and ### being the options for the image file name and the displayed size. Hyacinth (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

the three clave patterns at the top of the page

I see that you put them back up there after I removed them. I think that it's fine to have those patterns there, especially with the option of hearing them. However, as currently written, they do not correspond to the main body of the text. The two duple-pulse claves should be written in cut-time if you want to show them in two measures. Otherwise, you are implying that there are eight main beats per clave instead of four. Secondly, the clave on the bottom is merely the triple-pulse form of rumba clave; it is a clave pattern used in rumba. You show three of the four variants shown directly below the example of the three patterns. Finally, reconsider referring to the three patterns as 3-2. The 3-2/2-3 concept has limited application. While the "6/8" form of rumba clave can be used in the context of popular music, it is most commonly found in folkloric forms--Dr clave (talk) 23:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

In the rumba clave section we've got the top pattern while in the 6/8 section we've got the lower pattern:

X X  X X X  
X X X  X X  
............

Even if we split the pattern in half and put the second half first, we don't end up with the same patterns:

X X  X X X
 X X  X X X 
............

Hyacinth (talk) 01:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you are absolutely correct. I didn't look closely at the pattern. That's son clave in 6/8 form, not rumba clave. That's not what North American drummers refer to as "6/8 clave." This is the least common clave pattern in Cuban music. I can cite examples of its use in Cuba, but I know from over 30 years of research that it is very rare in comparison to the other three variants. The entire "6/8 clave" section should be deleted and the pattern should only appear when the two claves in their 4/4 and 12/8 forms are initially shown. The issue of the 12/8 patterns' metric structure is interesting, but it's probably not necessary for the clave page. It really belongs on the polyrhythm page and I would do it differently.--Dr clave (talk) 02:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

edit conflict

Why did you divide the "4/4" and "12/8" measures with a line in the pulse notation section? If

1 & a 2 & a |3 & a 4 & a ||

X . X . . X |. X . X . .

is supposed to correspond to the standard Western notation above it, those vertical lines in the middle should not be there.--Dr clave (talk) 03:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Who are you talking to? See Help:Page history. Hyacinth (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Whoever made that change. I assume that you are the only one working on this with me at the moment. I took out the vertical lines.--Dr clave (talk) 06:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

What if I hadn't figured it out? And, since you are no longer referring to my work ([1]) but to others' ([2])... Hyacinth (talk) 06:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Additive vs. divisive

We currently have two images named File:Tresillo additive.png & File:Tresillo divisive.png showing onset patterns, yet the surrounding text discusses how they are different, for example: "Those who wish to convey a sense of the rhythm’s background [main beats], and who understand the surface morphology in relation to a regular subsurface articulation, will prefer the divisive format." Is the quote referring to a difference in notation, or should the images be different? Hyacinth (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Hyacinth,

The quote refers to the two different metric contexts in which tresillo is used. The two ways of notating the pattern reflect these different contexts. I modified the count on the "pulse notation" version of the additive form so that it corresponds to the "pulse notation" version of the divisive form above it. I also added the preceding sentence to the quote. Have these changes I made clarified the issue for you?--Dr clave (talk) 19:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Rhythms of Morocco

I just wanted to add you'll find many rhythmic patterns including the clave in Morocco. But by no means do we "feel" these patterns as "additive". The underlying beat is always present, maybe that's not too obvious for a western outsider.

And while slaves from the Guinea regions definitely contributed to Moroccan culture (not only through music, but some Moroccan dishes originated from there too) there has been a centuries lasting diverse cultural/economical relationship between the Imazighen people in the borders of today's Morocco and the imazighen people of the Sahel region. Many Moroccan rhythms are very similar to rhythms found in northern parts of Mali/Niger for instance. And we all know that borders count little in the Sahel, that's more a European idea.

But even if one want to classify African rhythms as "devisive" there's still no one who'll ever play a rhythm with a rigid "1-e-and-e" structure in his mind. Rhythms are fluent much like melodies. You don't count you play. You'll find the beat already engrained in the melodic structure. And that's also how you choose a specific rhythm over another, or create a new one. Not by counting (or theorizing over 3-2 vs. 2-3) but by listening to the context of a given melody.

You may want to search for "lhaj belaid (otbib)" (moroccan souassa) on youtube as an example to better understand what I mean. And you may also want to see "onamer 4", which is another fine example demonstrating how rhythm, melody and language are pretty much interchangeable. Now, do you thing these musicians are counting 1-2-3-4? Are these "additive" or "devisive" patterns? The answer to this must be: No one really cares. Rhythm hast to be deeply organic, like anything you take for granted e.g. your heart beat, your steps, etc. After all its music not math.

Yet I have the impression that only Europeans and North Americans make such a fuss about notations and "6/8 feel" and stuff like that. The rest of the world seems to enjoy music whether it is "additive" or "devisive".

End Of Ranting :-)

92.72.176.220 (talk) 01:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I imagine if one feels the rhythm organically, they probably have no need to read about it on Wikipedia. -Dr. Clave

too many photos deleted

I restored the photo of claves. I don't know why so many photos were deleted. seems quite excessive to me.Dr clave (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Period

Clave is the basic period, composed of two rhythmically opposed cells, one antecedent and the other consequent.. > So far I understand a period is considerable larger than the length of one clave. This also correlates with the article period. Thus I wonder whether a clave can be called a period. Alternatively the article period may need work to include a broader definition. LazyStarryNights (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

According to the 2nd definition in the New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986: 625), a period is: "A musical element that is in some way repeated . . . it may be applied to the units any parameter of music that embody repetitions at any level."

That sounds flexible enough to include clave, the key repetitive pattern, does it not? Dr clave (talk) 06:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

But without a reliable source this reasoning amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS, working backwards from a dictionary. Do any other authors refer to it in this way?--User:Salix alba (talk): 07:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, two of the most important authorities on African rhythm—C.K. Ladzekpo and Dr. David Locke, use the term in this way:

"The recurrent grouping of the main beats normally creates a fixed musical period or measure"—Ladzekpo [1]. Ladzekpo is clear; the period is a single measure (four main beats) in length. In the same article, he addresses the two main ways in which the period is subdivided: "a musical period of 12 pulsations," or "a musical period of 16 pulsations," both of which he represents within a single measure.

Locke defines the "basic musical period" of the rhythm Agbadza as having "four beats" [2]. He also represents the bell pattern Cubans call clave, within a single measure: "The time span of one bell cycle establishes the temporal period of the music" [3]. In another article, Locke states: "The time span of the bell rhythm and its division into beats establish meter, a concept that implies a musical period" [4].

In his 1939 book Popular Cuban Music, Cuban musicologist Emilio Grenet describes the structure of the clave pattern, using a definition of period, without actually using the term: "We find that all its melodic design is constructed on a rhythmic pattern of two measures, as though both were only one, the first is antecedent, strong, and the second is consequent, weak" [5]. Grenet, like most literate Cuban musicians of his time, represented clave in two measures, with each measure having two main beats. As the New Harvard Dictionary of Music states: "A period usually consists of two phrases (an antecedent and a consequent)" (1986: 625).

1. ^ C.K. Ladzekpo (1995: Web) "Main Beat Schemes." Foundation Course in African Music. C.K. Ladzekpo "Main Beat Schemes"

2. ^ Locke, David "Agbadza: The Critical Edition" Tufts University. "Agbadza: The Critical Edition" By David Locke

3. ^ Locke, David "Yewevu in the Metric Matrix." MTO, a journal of the Society for Music Theory. v. 16, n. 4. Dec. Locke, David (2010: web). "Yewevu in the Metric Matrix."

4. ^ Locke, David "Improvisation in West African Musics" Music Educators Journal, Vol. 66, No. 5, (Jan., 1980), p. 125-133. Published by: MENC: The National Association for Music Education. "Improvisation in West African Musics" by David Locke

5. ^ Grenet, Emilio, translated by R. Phillips (1939). Popular Cuban Music New York: Bourne Inc. Dr clave (talk) 06:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Very good. I guess some of those references should go in.--User:Salix alba (talk): 10:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. Dr clave (talk) 15:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

As suggested, I added a Sub-Saharan music and music of the African diaspora section in the Period article.Dr clave (talk) 07:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Images in Soukous section

The Clave pattern in both images is wrong; the first measure is a 16th note too long.

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seben_guitar_and_clave.tif

The dotted 8th note is the culprit here.

84.179.41.171 (talk) 08:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for spotting that mistake.Dr clave (talk) 06:42, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

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3–2 piano guajeo

Is there a particular reason why the notation for the 3-2 piano guajeo is stretched out on the third bar? Phen9264 (talk) 15:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)