Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Gothic metal. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 3

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Archive 8

This Debate Is Going Nowhere, Fast

Repeatedly, I have asked Leyasu for published quotes, reviews, interviews, or biographies that both justify his edits and "discredits" the sources provided in the original edit. Between November 1st and now (November 6th) nothing of that sort has been provided. Any more participation (on my part) in this matter will be like squeezing blood from a turnip. It's really going nowhere, fast. Perhaps an Admin would like to contribute a couple cents...Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)

Quotes i am finding, but i cant just magic a libary into my hands. Interviews you have dismissed, then reamissed, and are again mostly found in music magazines, both reliable and unreliable. And biographies from where? If you want the bands themselfs, go to the bands websites. Instead of using ones fans and people with no connection with the scene write. ~~Leyasu

...I'd further like to add that it's counter-productive to try to fit a band under a blanket classification. Few here will argue that Therion's early albums are vastly different than their more recent works - so different, as to be completely different in terms of style and genre. I think a large part of the disagreement arises from this. --wr 19:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with wr here. Trying to be ridiculously super-accurate about a band's classification is counterproductive, and it results in our having to create a zillion other articles for classifying the bands that wouldn't fit in classifications like this one which should be more broad. For example, we had an article on Tolkien metal a while ago, about a kind of metal whose lyrics were only about Tolkien. Finding only a few bands that played it, the article was deleted in AfD. It would be in our better interests, then, to have our articles encompass more bands than that. In particular, I don't see anything wrong with calling a band that uses a male melodic vocalist and a male death/black metal vocalist gothic metal. And also it's hard to deal with a band whose work spans several different styles in this way. (To take an example from an article I expanded yesterday: Klank's first album was industrial metal. Their next album was hardly that!) --Idont Havaname 21:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I third that. It is common a band will change their sound and genre from album to album. Most notably with bands like Macbeth who have moved into Symphonic Metal and the bands that have moved into the Nu-Goth scene (which is small, not everything is recognised by the internet in its first years of birth). Often one album from a band will differ from another, and this is why most bands are evulated on an album by album basis. When i make reference to a band, i make reference to the band at current state. Also below i enclosed, a couple of paragraphs on what a genre is in brief. ~~Leyasu

I think we do need to have some historical information too, i.e. not just bands that have moved into the genre as you said, but also bands that started out as gothic metal and are now playing music of some other genre. In addition, I remember that from your version of the page, you mentioned Evanescence, Within Temptation, et al as being the Nu-Goth bands, while when I look for Nu-Goth on Google I also see bands like Cradle of Filth being classified that way. (A discussion on Nu-Goth is probably better-suited for the main article on gothic music, rather than this one. That way it will be apparent to the reader that it applies to bands that take some elements of regular goth music, gothic rock, gothic metal, and so on. I've generally heard the press call Evanescence "goth(ic) rock", for example, rather than gothic metal.) If we're going to discuss Nu-Goth in any article, we need sources for it from the press (if we can link to online versions of articles in well-known music magazines, even better), and figure out exactly what the term refers to. --Idont Havaname 15:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I remember that Kerrang and Metal Hammer both did features on it when it was first announced and i have quite a list of bands that are in this budding scene. I only know it from many Gothic Metal, Symphonic Metal and other metal bands claiming to be moving into furthering this new form of music. That is all, and as it is often confused with Gothic Metal i thought it worth mentioning. I also thought it worth mentioning due to the incidents between the two fans that happened such as at Rock City, Download Festival and after Bloodstock. I however do not know the issue numbers for the magazines, only that it was in them. If someone wants to crawl through past issues to look for it, thats cool. I also know of the following bands to be in the Nu-Goth scene: Cradle of Filth, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Macbeth, Evanescene, Tristania, Lacuna Coil, Him, My Chemical Romance. Ive heard there is more, but i have only heard word of mouth on that. ~~Leyasu

What Defines A Genre

Within many forms of music, the melodys, tunes, lyrics, vocal style and the way the instruments are played have as much importance as the mere sound itself. In some genres, this is unimportant, in others it is. Something to remember is that a genre is the sum of its parts, equal to its construction. Many genres have features that overlap, for instance, some Metal is heavily guitar driven, where as in others, the guitars play only a minor role. Others are focused on high speed and upbeat notes, others are centered around being slow and downbeat.

A genres key element is the composition of the music and the way in which it is played. Music from two different genres, when compared, will often have been written quite differently, with different ideas, goals, and features. Sometimes genres have the same ideals for composition and are played the same, and are only seperated by the way the music is played, but this is most common in subgenres. Genres are also defined by the way the composed music is played, and the instruments often used by the performers. Sound is generally not a defining point in genres, and is only usually definative when it comes to two ways of playing or using an instrument.

I hope people can understand that, as i understand my wording of all things great and small is not exactly the best. ~~leyasu

Revised Version (see Gothic metal/Temp)

Belows is the revised version of what i had. I have posted it below so people can see it and post underneath what they thing is wrong, where it is wrong, and make suggestion on how it could be better. Also putting any information that is missed would be helpfull so we can have a nice and complete, accurate, informant, and easy to understand article using everyones strengths when it comes to writing it. ~~Leyasu

Gothic metal (Sometimes called Goth Metal) is a genre of music that originated from doom metal. It developed in the early 1980s in Europe as a subgenre of Doom Metal known as Gothic Doom, the genre later forming from that subgenre. Gothic metal is a somewhat linear genre but due to much debate, its actual definition is not commonly known. The fans and musicians have a firm concept of the genre having been around through its growth and evoloution, but newer fans reject such categorisation as limiting or useless.

If there's a debate regarding the definition of the genre, then it makes no point to define it. Why would there even be a debate amongst "non Gothic Metal fans" in the first place? A very awkward and unclear beginning.

For instance, the Media is one of those 'Non Gothic-Metal fans'. Also many 'Goths' and 'Metalliers' discount the genre existance and what it is. Most arguments about what it is also tend to happen from people not invovled with the genre by any means, as a fan or someone who works in it.

There's really telling whether or not journalists in the media are fans of the genre or not. Have you asked them? Once again we're back to the "cite sources/examples" department. If their job is little more than to research, and they were discredited/debunked, then there would be a stream of backlash in interviews from bands reflecting this. So far, the only dissent is coming from a screen name on a Wikipedia discussion board.

Remember Dante, your argument works against you just as much as it works against me. Also i wouldnt exactly call Kerrang or MTV good sources, and yes they have benbacklashed enough times by various bands.

Sounds, Constructs and Lyrics (Header)

Gothic Metal is a genre of Metal that first appeared in the early 90's. It grew from the Doom Metal scene as an outgrowth from the subgenre of Doom Metal; Gothic Doom. Its first origins was with bands such as The Gathering, Moonspell and Theatre of Tragedy. These bands created the first symbiotes of Gothic Doom, which later went on to further Gothic Metal.

INCORRECT.The Gathering, Moonspell, and Theatre of Tragedy did not have "defining" albums released until 1995 (average). Before that, TG was death metal, and Moonspell/ToT were black metal. Long, long, before then, Christian Death were really the first to fuse thrashy riffs with gothic songwriting (including female vocals). And while Paradise Lost, Anathema or My Dying Bride may be called "Gothic Doom", "Goth/Gothic Metal" is really more elaborate considering they discontinued Doomish songwriting early into their career. The Gathering, Moonspell, and Theatre of Tragedy are clearly 2nd-3rd generation in the genre.

Erm no not wrong, The Gathering was never Death Metal, and if u listened to them before Anneke joined in Mandylion they sound nothing alike what Death metal is, and Moonspell/ToT sound nothing alike what black metal does. Pd,Anathema, and MDB are all Doom Bands, and will say that themselfs. All also use Doom Style composition.

No, correct, The Gathering were Death Metal, from 1989-1992, during the time they had their male singer Bart Smits. (Always would be their last album in this style.) Moonspell and ToT were very, very black metal before they made a name for themselves as gothic metal, and every biography will back that up. If you don't think X sounds like X, that's your opinion, not a fact.

Fact: X sounds like X. Fact: You cant claim X sounds like Y because it suits your case. TG isnt Death Metal, they use elements of Death Metal, but thats how Gothic Doom got its name name then as Doom Death. The same goes for Moonspell and Theatre of Tragedy are not black metal either, just because they use elements of it. And no, not every review will say that, because they have never been Gothic Metal, and never have been Black/Death either. Using elements of a genre, doesnt make them that genre.

Gothic Metal is a relatively loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is built and weighed upon its composition of songs and their parts.

Like most other music genres.

Yes like most other genres. But many people were getting this confused. One sentence on it clears a very common misunderstanding up.

The overall sound in Gothic Metal plays a minor role to suffice only to depict between itself and other genres. Gothic Metal tends to lend itself musically to Doom Metal, black metal, and Death Metal taking influence for the melody and rhythm ideas from these genres.

Considering black metal is also a touchy genre, and no examples are cited, this reads like opinion.

I wasnt sure wether to add in example bands or not, due to comments before about over comparison.

Thus, added in with Gothic Metals unique use of Duel Vocalists, Keyboarding and Acoustic guitar help distinguish the genre from others. Keyboards in Gothic Metal often play a major role in the music, often replacing the second guitarist in bands, taking on the role of either lead or rhythm. Acoustic guitars are sometimes present in Gothic Metal, and if a second guitarist is used, are often found playing a form of acoustic guitar. Bass in Gothic Metal pays akin to the deep lowness of Doom Metal, and the agression of black metal.

"brash harshness" - I don't think anyone is going to have a good idea what this means. POV city.

Excuse me for the way i talk. I was using what i thought would be best to explain what i meant, if u want it rewording i will do so. Which i have done, which in hindsight seems more fitting. Thank you for pointing out the problem.

Lyrically Gothic Metal is centered around Romanticide and Fantacide themes. The time setting for lyrics is often in the New Age or Dark Ages, but can also be in Victorian, Edwardian, Romanian, or even modern day. The Romanticide and Fantacide lyrics often used in Gothic Metal cover many broad subjects and are intended as being back themes and guides to the lyricist, rather than a complete prequisite of the genre. Gothic Metal bands typically don't write their albums in the form of seperate songs, they write in the form of books. This is so that each song acts as a part, or, chapter, inspiring people to listen to the whole album in order to hear the story, instead of just certain songs. Penumbra's 'Seclusion' and Slientium's 'Sufferion - Hamartia of Prudence' are two albums most notable for this style of lyrics.

"in the form of books" - no examples/sources provided. The purpose of reading a dictionary definition is not to be "inspired" but rather "informed". POV-double city.

Listening to a musical album isnt to inform people, its to inspire them. Read it again.

: That's POV. Again, the purpose when reading a Wikipedia article is to be informed, not inspired.

Read the paragraph as a whole, ive removed ur comments to the bottom of it along with mine. The idea of a musical album is to inspire, have fun, and make the person feel emotions, amongst other objectives. Not at one point does the paragraph say it is talking about anything other than a musical album, or say anything about a wikipedia article, nor will it. Again this is a case of u seeing what you want to see, and not what has been typed.

Gothic Metal bands normally have two vocalists. One Vocalist is a Male, who will use vocals akin to Black or Death metal. The other vocalist is usually female, often using Soprano based vocals, or harmonic singing. It has never been heard of that females do Black or Death type vocals in Gothic Metal, as duel vocalists in the manner prescribed are a signature of the Gothic Metal genre. Sometimes bands will use other forms of vocals included with the two prior vocalists, but this tends to only be for backing vocals.

The atmosphere is tailored to fit the song; warm and energetic, empty and enclosing. The atmosphere doesn't often follow the morbidity of Doom Metal unlike its origin, Gothic Doom.

POV

Musical fact about the genre, and is in no way POV. You sound like youve never even listened to the music. Also this is reworded from Dante's article (like a fair bit of it is) to be more informative.

Pre Gothic Metal History (1983 -1990) (header)

"Pre-" does not belong, considering the following section represents a history of Gothic Metal. Also, it makes more sense to include this section first, as it was (and as it is).

Erm yes it does as Gothic Doom is Pre-Gothic Metal. It came before, like the mother of the child comes before the child.

No, Gothic Doom has been described as Gothic Metal (or a form of Gothic Metal), and until you have published source to prove otherwise, this will just be another personal opinion.

Oh ive got websource for you all ready, not that i trust any website much. And funny enough, Gothic Doom as only been described as Gothic Metal, by, so far in my knowledge, you. http://www.doom-metal.com/. They have on the filter a list of Gothic Doom bands. As for 'websites' i will get them as and when i have the time.

The earliest stage of gothic metal can be traced to bands in the 1980s who utilized goth rock aesthetics with metallic songwriting akin to doom metal to later influence the subgenre, Gothic Doom. Although Glenn Danzig's Samhain made some attribution of this, Christian Death are regarded as the most influential to the founding of the subgenre. The deep vocal baritones of Rozz Williams and Valor Kand, the downtuned bass guitars and eerie synths made a strong impression on many bands that would form later, including those who experimented with other metal influences. Celtic Frost - although considered by many as an early black metal band - also played an semi important role for their "gothic-sounding" atmospherics.

History (1990-present) (header)

In the 1990s, a group of young bands in Northern England borrowed from the early gothic rock sound of the 1980s and incorporated it with the slow, down tuned guitar dirges of Black Sabbath in the same fashion as doom metal bands. Gothic Doom (known then as Doom Death), was the first stage of the Gothic Metal genre. Bands most notable for this style included Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Anathema.

Also called Doom/Death, removed (again) for no reason.

They influenced both, and are more commonly known as Gothic Doom, which they are.

Gothic Metal originated from this with bands such as The Gathering, Tristania and Therion taking the Gothic Doom sound that had arisen and making romanticide themed bands that borrowed from black metal's and Death Metal's guitaring and vocal styles.

None of the Gathering's albums (with exceptions to the Bart Smits era - which didn't really define their "Gothic metal" days) utilized "Black metal guitaring". Looking at the black metal page itself, the guitar riffs are defined as fast tremolo picking, whereas the The Gathering's songs (from Mandylion on) did not utilize such. I suggest anyone concerned listen to The Gathering's Mandylion-up and then to Nocturno Culto's (Darkthrone) or Abbath's (Immortal) riffs on any of their band's albums. Yet another example of No Original Research.

If you go look it says it utilizes that amongst other things. Also, you still sound like your not listening to the band, or checking the musical composition of the music. Also, u cant isolate one band from black metal that suits your case. Try listening to several random ones.

Since you haven't elaborated as to how black metal guitars sound similar to that of Gothic Metal, this comes off as misleading and strong personal opinion.

I already mentioned it in the Sounds and Constructs and so it shouldnt need mentioning again in detail.

Although the Scandinavian region was known more for its death metal and black metal fertility, many bands who started in either genre had progressed and conformed more to gothic doom styles - Moonspell, and Theatre of Tragedy, being two examples.

Moonspell are not from the Scandinavian area, they're from Portugal. Far West Europe. And why Tiamat and Lake of Tears (both from Sweden) were removed from this list we'll probably never know.

Well lets see, because Tiamat dont really have anything to do with it apart from being from the region, and the same goes for Lake of Tears. They have nothing to do with Gothic Metal on any note, apart from being in the asforementioned region. Also, that was minorly reworded from Dante's article, so problems with that part and the Scandenavia issue, complain to him.

Every biography/review/interview describes them as a gothic metal band. They sound like a gothic metal band. The same goes with Lake of Tears. You're once again putting yourself on the side of a POV/minority opinion.

No, every fan page and POV/Speculative review youve provided us with claims they are. Musically they have nothing to do with the genre. Again its the argument with the dog, no matter how many people you say 'told you so'that the dog has three legs. The people who work with dogs are always going to be right.

Although early gothic doom bands Paradise Lost and Anathema used some female vocals in their music, Norway's Theatre of Tragedy was the first gothic doom band with a leading female singer, Liv Kristine Espenaes Krull (later replaced by another female singer, named Nell). This impacted on Gothic Metal by adding the first ideas of using two vocalists in the bands, which later became a signature of Gothic Metal as it was quickly mimiced by bands including Tristania and The Gathering.

The article just contradicted itself here, big time: We're lead to "believe" that the The Gathering were the first Gothic Metal bands, but they really copied another Gothic Metal band. Much like the "Evanescence legal claim", no source to back this claim up.

Ironically the article says The Gathering was one of the originators of the genre, but not once did it say they were Gothic Metal. Also at no point does it claim that The Gathering came before Liv Kristine. This part is again minorly reworded from Dante's article.

Why are you now denying what you wrote? "it was quickly mimiced by bands including...The Gathering". And this makes no sense: "at no point does it claim that The Gathering came before Liv Kristine."

Im not denying what i wrote. Im pointing out that ur not reading what i put, but reading what u want to say. Your trying to build bridges between mountains on opposite continents, and it doesnt work. Also try reading it again.

A softer genre known as Symphonic Metal had evolved in the mid-late 1990s from Gothic Metal bearing strong similarities to its predecessor, with bands led by female singers. During this time the divide between Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal became apparant, Gothic Metal incorperating more aggresive elements of Death Metal and black metal directly into the music, adding more techinally complex melodys and rhythms into the music in comparison to the operatic and classical themes in Symphonic Metal.

What elements of death metal? Vague, no source/examples.

'Taking on a more technical approach and adding more complex melodys and rhythms into the music.' Erm, that per chance? do you want me to elaborate further?

Many bands take a "technical approach by adding complex melodies and rhythms into the music".

And it mainly comes from Black and Death influences. Which remember, you claimed the bands previously were. Criticising this section ruins your own argument.

The Gothic metal scene is currently very developed in Europe most notably in England and France, and is growing rapidly in Germany. Several groups of smaller bands are also emerging in east Europe and South America, struggling to gain a foothold where the scene is small.

Common Misconceptions (header)

Although the style has seen much more controversy than other metal genres - and remarkably, the most instances of debate - some arguments have gone on in regards to bands that have sported a gothic "image" in the eyes of the media versus those with direct musical connections to the gothic metal genre. This has included bands that have shown imagery akin to morbidity, religious themes, gothic fashion, vampirism, and satansim. Bands are also often mistaken for being Gcthic Metal as people considered goths will attend the performance of a band, and the media takes to believing the band is part of the gothic metal genre due to the people attending.

Gothic Doom (header)

Gothic Doom is best described as a subgenre of both doom metal and gothic metal. Early gothic doom started as a subgere of Doom Metal (Also then know as Doom Death) and later evolved to become more affiliated with Gothic Metal.

Gothic Doom thoughout its existance has combined aspects of both doom metal and Gothic Metal in varying quantities. Early bands in the genre were heavily rooted in doom metal, incorperating elements of death metal into the music and utilizing many things that later went on to become part of gothic metal, such as duel vocalists and the use of accoustic guitars. Later gothic doom later changed to be more based from gothic metal, often being rooted from gothic metal and replacing a lot of its aspects with their doom counterparts.

Gothic doom bands are overall characterized by their mixed use of elements of gothic metal and doom metal.

List Of Gothic Metal And Gothic Doom Bands (header)

Ashes You Leave

Artrosis

Autumn (United States)

The Sins Of Thy Beloved

Trail of Tears

Tristania (Previously)

Vampiria

Assuming that these are supposed to be only the most notable/influential bands (and why the other list was scrapped), it seems odd that many of the bands don't have their own Wikipage. "Leaves' Eyes" formed only 2 years ago and I think their genre (as would lateer TOT's) would be a subject of dispute. A Wikipedia article is not a place to list your favorite bands.

This is irony as most of the bands were removed for being Gothic Doom, or completely unrelated to Gothic Metal at all (Why someone put Cradle of Filth and Nightwish on the list i dont know). Also, i dont like half the bands listed and if people think of bands that should be on there, then as Idont said, discuss them on here. Also, if Gothic Doom bands are going to be listed there, it would be wiser to reterm it, A List Of Gothic Doom/Gothic Metal Bands.

As said before, please post under here what people think can be improved, why, and how. And what has been missed or overlocked. As i understand people believe the way i type is very POV and i would like people to read this and point out indiviudally in each part how it reads that way and how it can be better worded to not be like that. ~~Leyasu

This looks almost identical to what you'd posted before, but I'll offer my remarks/suggestions...

"much to the bereavement of its fans" is inherently POV
Drop the mention of Sweet Nightmare. If somebody made an article on them, it would likely be deleted. (Amazon doesn't have any of their albums.) Just wondering, Leyasu - are they your band? (I know you mentioned before that you're in a band.) If so, please do not use Wikipedia for self-promotion.

::: Not my own band. I play with the bands themselfs as a stand alone artist, and at the minute my own band is not even in action due to being broken up on a temoporary scale (life issues).

"the genre is built and weighed upon its composition of songs and their parts" - So is any other genre.

True, but some people were missing this point and weighing it on sound and appearance. I thought best to include this so people couldnt misunderstand. Are you suggesting to remove it?

Again, there can be male sung vocals, right? Some bands that have elements of gothic metal in their sound, such as Therion in some of their works (I'm thinking of the Therion CDs that I have - Lemuria andSirius B), use both male and female vocals with the death growls.

Duel vocalists of the Male Guttural/Female Harmonic type are a signature of Gothic Metal. I know of bands using male singing in songs and albums where they already have the 2 vocalists. Added it in with vocalists to make sure.

Given the popularity of Evanescence, you'll obviously need to provide a credible source for information about their alleged song piracies. Such an accusation really throws mud at the band if it isn't true, and it could get them very mad at us if somebody on one of their forums brings up this page. In addition, it would be best to not refer to Evanescence as being in any genre since that's very disputed (I know that most of the press definitely does not call them nu-metal). The only song on Fallen (which I have; I knew about Evanescence before popular music had heard of them through sites like Flaming Fish) that I knew they took from another band was "Tourniquet". That song had been performed (much better :-) ) under the title "My Tourniquet" by Rocky's previous band Soul Embraced before he joined Evanescence. I don't have the Fallen CD with me right now, but I don't *think* they mentioned it was a Soul Embraced song, just that Rocky had written it.

It wasnt covered much by media, little of least by MTV and Kerrang (it hurt their profits) but there was some English newspapers that did storys on it. I dont know of any web based sites stating it, but i do remember them being dropped from their label with the announcement and a large court case running for a while back. Ill see what i can find on the subject, and also see if i can find the original bands testimonials as i think they are on the internet somewhere.

Again, I don't see any band that actually labels themselves as Nu-Goth. I'm not sure that that should be mentioned at all, and if so it should be in the gothic music article, or maybe the mallgoth article.

I only mentioned it because it made sense to include it when its effiecently a spin off of Gothic Metal. But if you think you should delete it then thats fine. Ive also gained confirmation that Within Temptation was advertising the genre (again) at Bloodstock 2005 before their set. How im supposed to cite a gig though i dont know. Asking around to see if anyone has anyone with a very large Kerrang/Metal Hammer collection.

The "spoken treaty" would also need to be sourced.

I think there is history on the few band pages that exist. It wasnt anything to major, it was just a spoken agreement amongst smaller bands due to the unease of what had happened. I thought it worth mentioning due to the way the scene went still for a time, but can remove it if you wish (making the history somewhat incomplete on things that happened in it =x)

"strong hatred for the Nu-Goth site Goth-Metal.net" is also POV, and the remarks about verbal abuse and violence need to be cited.

Newspapers covered the incidents. And i know there was incidents with atacks on Evanescence at the Download Festival they played after their set. Attacks were also made on Nightwish and the fans at Bloodstock 2003. Lacuna Coil faired a similar fate when playing with Chimera a while back and Cradle of Filth have been attacked several times after playing at Rock City. Its probally mostly just trouble causes actually causing the trouble, but the general opinion of the Nu-Goth scene in the eyes of the GothicMetal one is very low to my understanding. The bands openly expressed their distaste for the site, and i will look through bands webpages to see if they still hold old announcements and such as and when i have the time (Having a daughter is such effort at times).

While lyrics are somewhat important, putting a requirement on a band that the lyrics be about certain themes is somewhat POV; this is a genre of music, not a style of poetry. You should probably say that the lyrics are usually centered on romanticide and fantacide, rather than saying that they always are.

This is one of those things that links the different lyrical types together. Im not saying their is a specific way of going about Romanticide or Fantacide. Its just the signature style of the genre as paganistic lyrics are akin to black metal and depression/morbidity are akin to Doom Metal. It is true that bands sometimes dont write these forms of lyrics, but usually have them as a backtheme.

Shouldn't gothic doom bands also be on the list of bands, since this genre grew out of that one? (I'm thinking of bands like Virgin Black in this case. Another one, that doesn't have an article here, that might be gothic doom metal might be Whispering Gallery.) To me, "gothic metal" is a more general genre, and "gothic doom metal" is a subset of that. It's similar to saying that Oi! is a genre of punk, for example, or that progressive trance is a type of trance music. This article is, like punk rock or trance music, a more general article, and there are several different branches of gothic metal. Our list shouldn't necessarily be the "Scene Purist's List of Gothic Metal Bands"; maybe we should use the press, ~~the All Music Guide,~~ and similar sources for judging who to include in the list. Of course Evanescence is out, but Therion and other artists that are sort of "on the fence", so to speak, should probably be included. It might be good to include a remark before the list that it is a list of bands that have been gothic metal at some point in their careers. (To clarify further, I wouldn't put one of my favorite darkwave bands, ThouShaltNot, on a list of swing bands just because they did a swing version of "Headhunter" by Front 242. However, if they did a whole swing album, then I would include them there.) If we're not sure if a band is gothic metal or not, we can just take that band here and talk about them!

--Idont Havaname 01:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Gothic doom is a subset of Doom Metal however, and is more to do with Doom Metal than Gothic Metal. Its only real true connneciton to Gothic Metal is that it helped create Gothic Metal. Nu-Goth im unsure were to place them, as wether they are a sub-type of Nu or a sub-type of Gothic. Symphonic Metal is a genre in its own right now and is rapidly growing with bands like Eternal Oblivion and Offertorium. It is suggested that for bands previously in the Gothic Metal scene, to be included in the band list with the tag (previously) as i attached to Macbeth. Perhaps also linking this page to Gothic Doom and Symphonic Metal articles (which im suprised havent been written) as so people can easily find reference to things mentioned here. After all, Symphonic Metal is very much a twin genre to Gothic Metal. It relativly plays the same form of music with distinct changes, (Female led, Fantasy based, atmosphere akin to Power Metal, orchestral and operatic themes). Suggested articles be created and linked to this to form a ring to better explain things, as all three scenes are rather large, but seem to lack in media attention, and the little they get tends to often be inaccurate. After all, the media has called Evanescence everything from Pop Rock, to Alternative Grunge, to Gothic Metal, to Punk Metal. Another suggestion, maybe creating a secondary list of Gothic Doom and Symphonic bands on the page, with the suggestion of people looking into them would be a valuable idea.

All previous comments in response made by Leyasu. ~~Leyasu

Ive corrected things up from the things u have mentioned, edited, deleted, reworded. Try now. (The point wasnt to delete everything, but make the reading right). ~~Leyasu

Definitely agree with the points made by Idont Havaname,particularly pointing out alleged "violence and verbal abuse" within the "scene". History has seen itself manifested by such during the U.S. civil rights movement, Irish hunger strikes or Apartheid, but "isolated" news (if any published source could be provided) for a music genre.

Overall, the "newer rendition" of the article is too analytical and reads too much like a personal point-of-view report. The purpose of a definition is to inform, not to influence opinion. I would like to point out, Leyasu, that another person cited Allmusic.com as a reputable source of information. Recalling our dicussion a couple days ago, perhaps you could tell us both - not just I - how Allmusic.com is POV, misleading, and long discredited, if you have found such "damaging" information.

In addition, I would like you to tell me which version of this definition would be more suitable, and then explain why (and vice versa):

1. SUV (or "sports utility vehicle") is a 4-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple passenger capacity, similar to that of a minivan. It is used as a primary source of transportion for many suburban families across the world.

2. SUV (or "sports utility vehicle") is a 4-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple passenger capacity but a high rate of casualities during accidents. It is similar to that of a minivan, but one should realize that it more resembles an F-150. It is used as a primary source of transportion for suburban families across the world, however many families prefer smaller cars nowadays in light of price gouging.Many people now call SUV's Gas Yuckers.This resulted in a protest of people in front of the Ford assembly line building demanding a more fuel efficient but spacious vehicle.Danteferno 19:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've now struck out the reference to Allmusic to tone down the controversy. I'd included it because often at Articles for deletion when a band's notability is called into question, a typical vote might be "Delete - Google hasn't heard of them, they're not in the All Music Guide, and nothing's available for them on Amazon". You are right about them being POV; I don't need some person who's not really familiar with a band to tell me what their best album is, although it is common practice in Wikipedia's album articles to include their AMG rating, if applicable, in the infobox. (That, and the All Music Guide is a very exhaustive printed publication with multiple editions; I've seen it in bookstores, and the All-Music Guide for just one genre could be thicker than a large dictionary, for example.) And as for your definitions (hopefully this will not take the discussion off topic), the first one is much better because all it does is state the facts objectively. The second one makes more comparisons than it should (some to things that are not really related) and is unsourced. --Idont Havaname 02:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the SUV question was directed to Leyasu to contrast the original version of the article, then the one he made, kind of as an "experiment". It doesn't appear as though he responded (or understood criticisms made towards his "Nu-Goth infiltration" paragraph), as he seems to be asking for more feedback, below. I'm not quite sure how many more people will have to tell him. Also note that he hasn't just claimed "Allmusic.com" was discredited,but many other Metal sites on the internet for reasons that have since since been provided with no back-up or source. Danteferno 07:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right. Both of them are good for different things. First one is good if you want a few simple obvious things, but then leaves it open for misinterpretation of what an SUV actually is. Second one is better at actually defining what one is, but makes for a longer read unless worded well. Also, i have pointed out these which i have openly said im working on sourcing, and your argument of, 'just because its not on the internet', doesnt mean its not true, as IDont also pointed out. Also as i pointed out your sites all openly admit speculation and i dont have to source the site saying it when they admit to it as part of the site, if you took the time to explore it. Ive stopped listening to most of your critiscism sheerly for the fact its not constructive and you openly admitted, without saying it, that you dont like people editing what you put. Thus the feedback was asked of others who can be constructive. ~~Leyasu

RE: "You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right." - I Never Wrote This Or Anything Like This At All. This is the 4th time you accused me of something that I never wrote, which is going to do nothing in the longrun but tarnish your personal credibility. In light of this and other inflammatory statements that you have made, I have washed my hands of attempting debate with you - It's really impossible to take you seriously. Danteferno 00:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The archives, if read, show you many times, in various ways, showing the attitude, and having you saying, that your artcile is right because you are right, and others are not. I asked for your feedback only because different people interpret things in different ways when read. Your wording was giving a highly misleading impression and was filled with inaccuracys. I have TRIED to keep as much of your article intact as possible, even adding in the Pre-Gothic Metal history which you had written. If you wish to end debate, that is fine. I will await feedback from Idont and other users who have more constructive things to say. Also ive asked for mre feedback, in the hopes of getting the best article between everyone possible. ~~Leyasu