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Inclusion criteria

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While the existence of this article may be an issue itself, it seems like we have an issue regarding the inclusion of the people listed here. While they all appear to be American, for many it does not seem like there is any other conclusion that the person listed is Jewish, other than having Jewish parents or ancestors. Are there any other editors who are across this issue? Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Woody Allen and Albert Einstein were both Jewish although neither was religious. So under your definition they would not be Jewish?Patapsco913 (talk) 22:48, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've made no reference to religion, but we shouldn't assume that anybody with parents who are Jewish are also Jewish. That should be a matter of demonstrable self-identity. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If one's parents are ethnically Jewish, then the children are ethnically Jewish as well. One cannot change one's ethnicity. The children may be irreligious or convert to another religion but that does not change their ethnicity. Al Capone is still an Italian even if he were to self-identify as Irish. This list does not differentiate between ethnic Jews and religious Jews.Patapsco913 (talk) 23:23, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Al Capone was not Italian, he was very famously American. This list should not differentiate between religious Jewish people and non-religious Jewish people, but it should only contain Jewish (and American) people. This is not about ethnicity, this is about being Jewish or not, and we can't assume that the children of Jewish people are also Jewish. One of the main issues here is the reliance on small Jewish-oriented and local publications which are not particularly reliable. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This page is about Jewish people who can either be ethnic or religious Jews. Are you saying that it should only include religious Jews> If so, you are taking a narrow definition to fit your argument. Italian can be an ethnicity or a nationality. Jewish can be a religion or an ethnicity. So under your argument, Einstein is not Jewish since he does not follow Judaism but rather is solely American?Patapsco913 (talk) 10:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It should include Jewish people, regardless of their ethnicity or religion, if they are American. If Einstein is widely considered to be Jewish, and considered to be American, he should be on this list. We should not and we do not need to determine for ourselves who is Jewish and who is not. We merely have to rely on reliable sources to determine this. As for the edits, most of this was not my bold edit, it was somebody else's. I am merely restoring their edits which you reverted. You're entitled to challenge these edits but myself and that editor concerned would like those edits to stand. Onetwothreeip (talk) 11:08, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We have a lot of people editing this page so it is better to get everyone on the same program via the talk page rather than you making an edit and someone else adding the opposite going forward. Yes, we use reliable sources that show 1) they are Jewish; 2) they are American; and 3) they are a businessperson. I guess I got confused when you said Alan Faena only has "some Jewish ancestry" when reliable sources indicate he is in fact 100% ethnically Jewish (uncertain if he is religious or not) so it appeared to me that you were focusing on Jewish as a religion alone. That said, I broke out the three issues that I see below so please comment there. I am in agreement with your removal of "former"; I think that we should mention the geography of regionally based companies like Polk Brothers or Goldblatts but remove others; I think it is more helpful to use the full name of a publication and I have posed the question on the relevant discussion board.Patapsco913 (talk) 11:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We do not have a lot of people editing this page, and it was only you who reinstated the removed content. We shouldn't be following the Nuremberg Laws regarding who is and isn't Jewish. Reliable sources need to state that the entries are Jewish, not that their parents are, and there are many unreliable sources here. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Old issue but I agree with Onetwotheeip, Italian is not an ethnicity, and ethnicity is not a well defined criterion (and it is less and less well defined). Klinfran (talk) 13:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


the article List of LGBT Jews defines by

This is a list of LGBT Jews. Each person is both Jewish (by birth or conversion according to Jewish law, or identifies as Jewish via ancestry) and has stated publicly that they are [...]

Alan Faena, for example, was interviewed by The Forward in May 2019: link

[The Forward] Has anyone ever made your Jewishness an issue in your business dealings? [Faena] No, [...]

Tnnnbm (talk) 09:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In order to not include persons without any meaningful connection to being Jewish, we can limit these lists to those who identify as Jewish, and where such determination has been made by highly reliable sources. Otherwise we would be including far too many people who simply aren't themselves Jewish, such as Alan Faena. Onetwothreeip (talk) 04:17, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... the Jewish Telegraphic Agency is a 'unreliable' source? c'mon. regarding Charles Revson, which u also recently removed because he didn't stated "I'm a Jew" -- ever looked at his foundation? no "meaningful connection" here at all? for Mr. Zyman, please also remove him from the list of Mexican Jews, since he's only a heritage, not a 'real one'. Tnnnbm (talk) 08:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing against restoring the entries I removed from the article if they have sources to support that they are Jewish. I did not remove any entries that were supported by Jewish Telegraphic Agency, I only removed the sources. If they are indeed Jewish, there should be no problem finding other sources. As for the Mexican Jews list, that may very well have similar problems. Wikipedia cannot be a reliable source for Wikipedia. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
please add {­{better source}} instead of removing (the complete entry) on your next run. Tnnnbm (talk) 11:56, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish

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'Ideally, the best source of this information is a SELF-IDENTIFICATION by the person themselves, however, SOURCES MAY identify the person as Jewish by virtue of one or more parents being Jewish or by conversion to Judaism." Not sure what you are saying. If the sources identify someone as Jewish, then they are. We just have to be aware of what they are saying.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a reliable source.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the purposes of this article, a person is Jewish if a reliable source says they are Jewish. Not if a reliable source says they have Jewish ancestry or Jewish parents, but if a reliable source says the person is Jewish. Jewish Telegraphic Agency is simply not reliable for the purposes of identifying who is Jewish. Apart from not being an otherwise reliable source, they have labelled people Jewish who are not labelled Jewish by any other reliable or mainstream source. Even if they were considered a reliable source, they are clearly a fringe source for their incredibly low criteria on determining who is Jewish, and cannot be relied upon by Wikipedia for this purpose. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1) The Jewish Telegraphic Agency has been around since 1917 and I do not see any discussion that it is not reliable. 2) We clearly stated the conditions of inclusion for this article but you deleted it without discussion. You seem to want define who is Jewish under your terms. See Who is a Jew? which is the standard that we follow as long as the citation explains why the subject was included. If the source says they are from a Jewish family or that they have 100% Jewish ancestry, then we will include them on the list with the exact quote from the article so the readers will understand.Patapsco913 (talk) 04:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Patapsco913 Jewish Telegraphic Agency is not a reliable source, and have often been the only source stating that a particular person is Jewish. This is clearly not representative of reliable sources, and existing since 1917 in some form does not make it any more or less reliable. We absolutely do not follow Wikipedia articles like Who is a Jew? to determine who is Jewish, as that is something that is entirely up to reliable sources to say explicitly, not for us to interpret. If a source says that someone has Jewish family or Jewish ancestry, all this means is that they have Jewish family or have Jewish ancestry. If they are Jewish themselves, it would say they are Jewish. Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SPLIT

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@Patapsco913, Jayjg, and Peyna:

as the page is too blown-up, WP:SPLIT is suitable, are you OK hereby?

______

  • (re)main:
    • Aerospace
    • Energy/mining
    • Manufacturing/dist.
    • Other
    • Pharma/health
    • Technology/software
    • Tourism/hotels
      • Restaurants


  • _in_the_financial_services_industry


  • _in_the_media_industry
    • Advertising/PR
    • Music
    • New media
    • Newspapers/publishing
    • Television/film/video


  • _in_the_real_estate_industry


  • _in_the_retail_industry
    • (w/o section:) Retail(-intro)
    • Clothing
    • Cosmetics
    • Food
    • Stores
    • Toys/games

Tnnnbm (talk) 09:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with it.Patapsco913 (talk) 13:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Patapsco913 and Onetwothreeip: well, even if some inclusion/sourcing issues still remain, as Onetwothreeip noted, splitting should promptly take place, as loading/rendering time of this page is greatly logy. i agree having shorter page names is worthwhole, but let's keep the term 'businesspeople' to preserve order.

List of Jewish American businesspeople
List of Jewish American businesspeople in finance
List of Jewish American businesspeople in media
List of Jewish American businesspeople in real estate
List of Jewish American businesspeople in retail

(for content allocation, see above)

afterwards, let's fix the issues by providing {­{better source}} Tnnnbm (talk) 07:14, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"List of Jewish American" already preserves order, we don't need "businesspeople". Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
see Lists of American Jews, all linked pages go by 'List of Jewish American xyz', so 'List of Jewish Americans in finance' would break fmt - or even confuse, like 'List of Jewish Americans in media'; what about 'List of Jewish American [financial|media|real estate|retail] executives'? Tnnnbm (talk) 08:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think if we say Jewish American people in Finance we open it up to including finance professors and perhaps economists. Better to keep the "businesspeople" in the list.Patapsco913 (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
done. Tnnnbm (talk) 11:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
main ~82kb (prior >400kb), finance ~88kb, media ~138kb, real estate ~62kb, retail ~63kb Tnnnbm (talk) 12:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Should we not have a category Finance and then the link below like you had before. It seems a little confusing that someone would have to read the heading or go to the bottom to find the finance category.Patapsco913 (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
i undid the comment-out; however, as @Onetwothreeip hit again, and -- comprehensibly -- the

All entries should be accompanied by a reliable source identifying the individual as Jewish. For more on why reliable sources may consider a person Jewish, please see Who is a Jew? — ideally, the best source of this information is a self-identification by the person themselves, however, sources may identify the person as Jewish by virtue of one or more parents being Jewish or by conversion to Judaism.

part is much more targeted to editors than regular viewers - what about putting this into a editnotice? Resp., adjusting (the existing one) Template:Editnotices/Page/List of Jewish American businesspeople? (<- [how] is it possible to include this into the splitted pages? @Onetwothreeip: a admin-only thing?)

Tnnnbm (talk) 06:16, 15 December 2019 (UTC) Tnnnbm splitting the list is an ok idea, though it means five lists must be monitored for spurious/unsourced additions, rather than one. Jayjg (talk) 18:28, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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