Talk:Local government in Wales

Use of data in Office of National Statistics maps

Alistair Dent, the Mapping Services Manager for the Office of National Statistics, has advised the helpdesk that this article has been used as research material in developing maps for a forthcoming publication. Well done to all those involved in preparing the article. Capitalistroadster 00:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Mysterious 1887-1888 Commission

Found reference in Commons Hansard of 1972 July 20 (cols 1095 onward) to a boundary commission "a Boundary Commission in 1887-1888" which apparently recommended the union of Flintshire with Denbigshire. We have Barry Jones proposing a Flintshire separate from Clwyd (with detached parts and all!), Nicholas Edwards, MP for Pembroke, keeping an independent Pembrokeshire from Dyfed : he claims that he "and some of my constituents presented a petition to the Secretary of State signed by 55,562 people over the age of 18", noting this is more than 78% of the electorate in Pembrokeshire. Concern was raised over the idea the Welsh language might be imposed on Pembrokeshire.

George Thomas then proposes an amendment to merge Mid Glamorgan and South Glamorgan into a single East Glamorgan : argument is put forward that Cardiff would dominate South Glamorgan too much and Mid Glamorgan is not viable. debates lasts from column 1147 to 1211, but was negatives. Roy Hughes moved a half-hearted amendment to keep Newport as a county borough outside of Gwent (the amendment appears to be malformed, but hey), this is quickly negatived. Neil Kinnock moved an amendment to have the Rhmney Valley district in Gwent rather than Mid Glamorgan. Mr Rowlands moved an amendment to have a Heads of the Valleys (that name seems to keep cropping up) county, including Merthyr, Brynnmawr, Llanelly, Rhondda, Aberdae, Galligae, Mountain Ash, Abertilley, Bedwellty, Ebbw Vale, etc... these all have been negatived. Next amendment: Caerwyn Roderick noted he had "no love for Powys" but proposed an amendment to keep all of Brecknockshire in Powys. 194.66.226.95 18:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be the commission set up under the Local Government (Boundaries) Act 1887 in preparation for local government reform. Unfortunately I have yet to see their (500 page) report. I t doesn't appear to have been debated in parliament, just "placed in the library". When I get rich I will get the British Library to scan it to disc for me Lozleader (talk) 10:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have found a bit more: it was actually a proposal by the justices of the two counties to amalgamate. The Times of March 15, 1888 notes that the magistrates of Flintshire voted to merge with Denbighshire by the casting vote of the chairman. In Denbighshire the chair of the quarter sessions proposed supporting the merger, but this was lost by a single vote. The matter was to be left up to the Boundary Commissioners. Lozleader (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Police and fire

Might it be a good idea to have a section on the police and fire service areas, like is done at Subdivisions of Scotland?. G-Man * 22:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Counties of Wales

I wasn't aware of this policy about historic counties. After reading the policy, I would say that the categories I created are put into a historic context in the categorisation structure by grouping them under Category:Towns in Wales by historic county. I would not object to having them reverted, if this is deemed to be confusing the issue about current administrative divisions and former counties. ArfonOwen (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Also under this heading, is it completely correct to assert 'The principal areas are variously styled as county, county borough, city or city and county'? The Vale of Glamorgan, for example, styles itself simply 'Vale of Glamorgan Council'. Similarly, parliamentary constituencies are either county or borough constituencies, but it is rare for anybody to identify a constituency as county or borough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephennewton (talk • contribs) 16:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

"Principle areas" imagemap - Monmouthshire

The imagemap highlights Cwmbran (which I believe is intended as the administrative centre of Monmouthshire CC), but the Monmonthshire article lists Usk for this, and the Monmouthshire County Council article states that the current office building opened in 2013. I don't know how to edit the imagemap, however, or even how to find the underlying document. Could someone familiar with imagemaps please correct this? Aoeuidhtns (talk) 12:17, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The map seems to have been created by Alphathon, so you could try asking them. It's 'principal areas', by the way... Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It is true that I made the imagemap, but I did not create the map itself (they are two separate things: the image/file – Wales Administrative Map 2009.png – was created by Wikimedia Commons user XrysD; I created the imagemap, which is what makes it clickable). Unfortunately I cannot amend the map since AFAIK I don't have the fonts used to create it. If I did I'd be more than happy to amend it though. Now that you mention it it is a little odd that Cwmbran is listed at all; it's clearly supposed to be Monmouthshire's seat but isn't even in Monmouthshire (it's in, and is shown in, Torfaen). Alphathon /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 13:19, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Monmouthshire's admin HQ was indeed at the old Gwent County Hall in Cwmbran - outside the authority's area - until the building was condemned and the authority's functions moved increasingly to Usk over the last few years. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2016 (UTC) PS: I've posted a message for Wikimedia Commons user XrysD. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I just read the message. I will update the admin map (and variants) to show Usk as the Admin HQ for Monmouthshire ASAP. XrysD (talk) 15:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, done! XrysD (talk) 17:56, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Alphathon - can you do what's necessary to put the new map on the page? Thanks.. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:32, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything for me to do - the image itself has been updated so there should be no reason for the old version to show up on the page. If it is still displaying the old version for you it's probably just down to caching and will likely resolve itself soon (may take a few days but probably a matter of hours or even less). Alphathon /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 13:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

XrysD - OK, thanks - though I suppose, to be consistent, the map should also give the Welsh name Brynbuga. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I should have realized that when I changed the Welsh Language version too! Will fix when I get a moment. If the new map isn't showing up, you can force a refresh (in Chrome) by hitting F5. XrysD (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

It's OK, works for me now. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

New svg map of counties (principal areas)

Thanks to User:XrysD, there's now a new svg map of all counties: commons:File:Wales Principal Areas Map.svg, which can be amended to create further maps such as Health Boards, police areas, % of COVID-19 deaths etc. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Just to add, the Health Boards Map is now available One showing health down to the cluster level is in production - I will put this on the NHS Wales page when done. XrysD ^TALK 13:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

If anyone creates a work using either of the maps, please list it as a derivative work by adding it to the Commons page for the map you use. If you're unsure how to do that - instead just leave a message on my talk page with a link to the derived map and I'll add it for you. XrysD ^TALK 15:45, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Subdivisions of Wales

Should there be a split off of "Subdivisions of Wales"? As I do not think counting statistical regions, fire and rescue, and police forces as "local government"? DankJae 19:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The principal areas don't have their own article, which is a bit odd. It would make sense to rename this article 'Principal areas of Wales' and split off all the rest into a new 'subdivisions' article, yes. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

So three articles? Local government in Wales, Subdivisions of Wales and Principal areas of Wales? DankJae 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Was just looking how there is a Subdivisions of Scotland, so not sure on PAs. Maybe DankJae 21:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, it seems like "subdivisions of Wales" is the missing article here.

• "Local government in Wales" should be about the current local government structure
• History of local government in Wales covers previous structures and the establishment of the current structure
• "Subdivisions of Wales" should cover much of what's currently in this article, like police areas and statistical divisions.

A.D.Hope (talk) 21:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, done the PAs and Subdivisions as a start split, ofc more would be added slowly, especially other subdivisions, with this article more focused on councils, authorities and organisations, and their inner workings. DankJae 02:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh fantastic, really good work. I'll take a look when I have a min! A.D.Hope (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead bold

Hey @DankJae. I'm not being awkward for the sake of it about the bold phrases in the lead, but as I understand MOS:BOLD only the title phrase or the specific terms which redirect to an article should be use boldface. 'County' and 'county borough' can't use boldface in this case because those specific terms don't redirect here. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

nor does Principal area? DankJae 21:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Then it shouldn't be in bold, I'll correct that now. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Done it anyway, just wanted the page preview to be handy when someone comes across "county" or "principal area" considering the terms are used interchangeably but aren't the same. DankJae 21:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree on being clear about the terms, The MOS is just a bit finicky when it comes to boldface. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, MOS:BOLDALTNAMES states "Usually" here can account for cases like "Foo, also known as Bar, Baz, or Quux", where the "Baz" item is actually not a redirect from "Baz", but maybe "Baz (chemistry)", and so it wouldn't fit an absolute redirect requirement, but would be visually confusing if de-boldfaced between the other two. "Usually" isn't blanket license to boldface things for emphasis. DankJae 21:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's visually confusing for "county" and "county borough" to use normal type in this case. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Still wouldn't your interpretation invalidate bolding leads of any article with "of" "in" and parenthesis? Note, that you would have to apply such to articles such as Historic counties of England or United Kingdom (de-bolding of "Britain"). I just have always seen a lax implementation of that MOS, so if you are to apply a new standard, I suggest raising it somewhere else for either support or at least clarity on the MOS. DankJae 21:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd have to look at each article properly, but on the face of it my opinion is that only the title phrase of the historic counties article should use boldface, but 'Britain' in the UK article is exactly the sort of thing the passage of the MOS you've quoted allows. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It says "between the other two", Britain is at the end. DankJae 21:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Even if it were in the middle I think it'd be fine, Jae. The issue here is that neither "county" nor "county borough" redirect or disambiguate to the article. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

County boroughs of Wales does? "of Wales" is basically a natural disambiguator. DankJae 22:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"county borough" was the phrase in bold in the title, not "county boroughs of Wales". Restoring the former could mislead readers into thinking this is the main article about county boroughs, when it's county borough. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, nonetheless, I give up, I added it in the first place, among a dispute whether to start leads on the principal areas with "is a county" or "is a principal area". DankJae 22:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

There are far too many things called counties in the UK, that's the problem! A.D.Hope (talk) 22:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)