Talk:Muslim world

Missing sections

The "Mongol invasions" of the "Islamosphere" is missing from this article.

The Mongol invader were deciples of Vajrayana Buddhism and their invasions devastated the "Muslim World".

Muslim response to the "Crusade" is missing.

Muslim response to "Zionist" Jewish community is also missing. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Missing passages

There are missing passages about the tensions between the Arab and the "Ajam".

Missing passages about incidents of tension between the Sunni, Shia and Ibadi. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Remove image

The image of the economist Muhammad Yunus should be removed for he isn't an advocate of the Islamosphere, but rather a person of intellect. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Antiquity standards

This article should only contain images or passages of Islam related to "antiquity" and not:

images inspired by cosmic phenomenon or reality in human terms. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Turkey

Shia Muslims make up 28% of Muslims in Turkey? Where are the ref or sources? Even 47% Shias in Yemen seem exaggerated Nlivataye (talk) 12:59, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Requesting inputs

Greetings,

Adequate and nuanced overview for even non– Muslim audience is expected out of the articles Muslims and Muslim world. Whether the articles are achieving that purpose adequately? Requesting and expecting proactive participation in providing inputs from non–Muslim audience too along with Muslim users.

Since the article Muslim world is tagged various improvements it can not be submitted to formal review process still I feel the article deserves more inputs for content improvement.

Requesting your visit to the articles

• Muslims and
• Muslim world

and provide your inputs @

• Talk:Muslims/Archive 8#Requesting inputs and
• Talk:Muslim world#Requesting inputs

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Saudi history geography

Paragraph about Muslims in the world 2001:16A2:4427:E100:2431:4598:5A0B:3F82 (talk) 12:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Added "other" too as part of government and religion

Syria and Lebanon does not fit to the context as state religion in their Constitutions, I believe the term that would be right for them is "other" since they nowhere fit as secular states, nor Islamic states, or state religion. The world atlas reported 4 types of government and religion in which countries that does not fit to Islamic states, state religion, or secular states, will be counted as a distinct one. This is the case for Tunisia aswell, though it plans to abolish Islam as their state religion, they will still require the president to be Muslim by law. https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/factbox-whats-tunisias-proposed-new-constitution-2022-07-01/ Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 04:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What you added doesn't describe their situation properly. How can you say that Syria does not endorse Islam as the state religion when its constitution states that Islamic jurisprudence shall be a major source of legislation, and the law prohibits conversion from Islam?

requiring the President to be of a certain religion not any religion: the president is required to be a Muslim. M.Bitton (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The same for Gambia: you moved it to secular state and mentioned this source in your edit summary. Which part of that source supports your statement? M.Bitton (talk) 11:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The Gambia issue was a proposal for Gambia to become an Islamic Republic by the former President, Yahya Jammeh. It did not went into success, as of now Gambia still has a secular constitution of 1996. The sources which I mention for Gambia was the constitution in the reference that is a secular state, whereas the Christianity today's source was of its proposed sharia constitution that has failed to be enacted by the country. Gambia has a de jure secular constitution according to the constitutional references provided and a plan by the former Gambian President for Gambia to become an Islamic Republic had failed. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 04:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Please answer the question: which part of the source that you cited says that Gambia is a secular state? M.Bitton (talk) 10:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The source that I cited was not the source from Christianity Today. It was rather from Gambia’s Constitution of Article 1 and also World Atlas’s sources that says Gambia as a Secular state. The latter 2 sources have already been referenced even in the current edits that you recently just done. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 11:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

You cited that source in your edit summary, so please, do me a favour and answer the question. M.Bitton (talk) 11:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I don’t have to I said the sources were Gambia’s Constitution of Article 1 and also World Atlas’s sources that says Gambia as a Secular state. The edit summary was just me be ellaborating that Gambia’s plan to Introduce a Sharia friendly plan has failed (as in Islamic Republic) has failed, and they are no attempts of reintroducing it. Also, Islamic Republic will means that Gambia is an Islamic state as with Mauritania, Iran, and Afghanistan, not only a state religion. What is your claim based on removing edits that have valid references in it? Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 11:13, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Since you obviously agree with what is said in the source that you cited in the edit summary and the source in question is specific about the fact that Gambia is not a secular state, my question is simple: why are you describing it as such? M.Bitton (talk) 11:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Because the references provided as of Gambia’s Constitution and World Atlas’s sources says that Gambia as a Secular state. Do you need me to give you another source explicitly or what? It is okayy to not put Gambia as a Secular state List, but at least if not going to put at all then it is not going to be put in anyway, it is going to be ousted of the List of Countries with Government and Religion of this Muslim World page. Since sources provided doesn’t describe Gambia as having a state Religion in anyway, so not valid as of WP:RS. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 11:29, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

You're still evading the question. Anyway, let me make it even simpler for you (suing the other cherry picked source): since when secular states have "Cadi courts"? M.Bitton (talk) 11:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The Qadi courts jurisdriction in Gambia applies only to marriage, divorce, child custody, and inheritance where all the involved parties are Muslims. It is common like that in the Secular Muslim World (see: Islam and secularism). A Secular Muslim-majority Country could be Secular with Religious (Qadi) courts along with Secular Civil courts, so long as Islamic criminal law with corporal punishments don’t apply in the Country’s National law. U.S Department of State 2021 Report on International Religious Freedom also reported the Gambia’s constitution :prohibits religious discrimination, the establishment of a state religion, and religiously based political parties. How can a Country have a state Religion, when the Constitution of the Country bans the establishment of state Religion itself. Now can I put back the Gambia on the List of Secular states by the current references provided? Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 12:23, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is clearly going nowhere and it's time to wait for input from other editors. BTW, this is the amended constitution of Gambia (you linked to an old one). M.Bitton (talk) 12:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The U.S department of state have stated the omission of the word secular is in Gambia’s new draft of Constitution, not yet to the current one. Anyway, state religion or official religion means that a country have such declaration in it's constitution, some references to provisions of religious laws does not mean the country affirms for state religion. See: secular state, it means that Gambia still does not have Islam as it's current state religion and it needs to be updated. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 07:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

First, you cited an old constitution and now you're citing the draft constitution. In case, you missed it, the current constitution (2018) is what matters. Please, stop edit warring and wait for input from other editors. M.Bitton (talk) 10:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Sure, we will wait input from other editors. But please also listen to what I have said, there is no need to revert my edits on this page. It seems like you have a really high maintenance policy that prefers your editing over the other editor’s edits WP:HIGHMAINT, especially to new users. Although I have already gave you the sources that Gambia is a secular state alike both from the other articles and on references in this page and for especially it doesn’t have Islam as it's state religion. Please for once listen to other editors who are trying to collaborate with you, do not make it your PoV only. I do ask other editors to comment or we will make a dispute resolution about this, but please listen. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Please refrain from casting aspersions. M.Bitton (talk) 11:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Gambia, the cited source "World Atlas" explicitly listed Gambia in Secular Muslim Majority Countries. The Constitution of the Gambia also did not mention that Gambia is Islamic State, it's even state the parliament can not pass a bill to establish certain religion as state religion (article 100.2.b).

While it's true that in 2015, It's president declared that Gambia as Islamic Republic, but the next president overturn that decision.

So, I don't see why we should list Gambia in State religion as it didn't aligned with the listed source. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Gambia is not a secular state: the unconstitutional decision to make it so was overturned by the Supreme Court. While it's true that the unilateral decision to describe it as an Islamic state was overturned, It still however recognizes Sharia law in its constitution (its Islamic Cadi courts are given jurisdiction over other faiths in interfaith marriages and families). M.Bitton (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

That's your interpretation and it's WP:OR, If you insist to list Gambia as state religion then you need to provide reference that explicitly states that. And the moment, the cited reference support statement Gambia as secular state and comply with WP:V. Ckfasdf (talk) 20:20, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent what I said. At the moment, it's the claim that Gambia is a secular state that needs to be substantiated (using Gambia's constitution and official sources). If you want to start a RfC, then by all means, we can do that and let the sources do the talk. M.Bitton (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

All I said, those are your interpretation. IMO, existence of sharia court in a country doesn't necessarily makes them a "state religion" country. For example, Nigeria also have recognized Sharia Court and yet it's listed in "secular state". Indonesia, listed in "secular state", also have so called religious court (basically a sharia court that have jurisdiction over civil cases between Muslim spouses on matters concerning marriage, divorce, reconciliation, and alimony.) Ckfasdf (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Since you states the claim that Gambia is a secular state that needs to be substantiated (using Gambia's constitution and official sources), the claim that Gambia is a state religion should also substantiated (using Gambia's constitution and official sources). And if we look up Constitution of Gambia, while no explicit mention that Gambia is a secular state, article 100.2.b explicitly states The National Assembly shall not pass a Bill to establish any religion as a state religion. Ckfasdf (talk) 21:09, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Syria, although the constitution of Syria never mentioned anything about state religion, article 3 of the constitution states Islamic jurisprudence shall be a major source of legislation, which put heavy emphasis in Islam. So, I think Syria still can be considered as State Religion. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Lebanon, it's constitution never states that it is state religion or put islam/any other religion as major source of legislation or anything like that. It's preamble even state Lebanon is a democratic parliamentary republic based upon the respect of public freedoms, freedom of opinion and freedom of belief; and of social justice and equality in rights and duties among all citizens, without distinction or preference.. It does have distribution of power governed by National Pact, which states its president is always Maronite Christians and its premiership is always Sunni Muslims. But, that should not justify Lebanon as state religion. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere:

• We agree on Syria's case.
• Gambia doesn't belong in any of the main categories that we already have.
• Lebanon wasn't discussed previously, but since you mention it, I have to agree that its confessional system sets it apart.

Given the above, it stands to reason to drop them in the others section (maybe with an explanatory added to each). Let me know what you think. M.Bitton (talk) 10:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Gambia, it think it still should included in "Secular State". It does have Cadi (somekind of Sharia) court but it only has jurisdiction in marriage of muslims. And such court is not only exclusive to Gambia. As I state above, Indonesia and Nigeria also have similar court with similar jurisdiction, and both are listed as Secular State. Regarding Lebanon, actually Jeremy Kusumatmadja bring it up first on his first sentence of this section. And yea, I think only few countries use confessional system. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not just the Cadi courts. The unconstitutional decision to describe Gambia as "secular" was overturned by the Supreme Court and the word "secular" was removed from the constitution. M.Bitton (talk) 13:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

TBH, I don't know what you are talking about. AFAIK, current Gambia Constitution on article 1 still states The Gambia is a Sovereign Secular Republic. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

That's not the current constitution, this is the current one. M.Bitton (talk) 22:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I stand corrected. However, eventhough "secular" is not explicitly stated in the constitution. There are references that state Gambia as secular state, such as the cited reference (World Atlas) and here. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know who's behind World Atlas and whether they are keeping up with what's happening in Gambia. The word "secular" was removed from its constitution after the unconstitutional decision to add it was overturned by the Supreme Court. M.Bitton (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Nevertheless, that's the cited information (and satisfy WP:V). And the last update on World Atlas is in 2021, also there are similar statement on other source as I mentioned above. If you disagree and insist to put as other, then kindly please provide citation that Gambia should not be considered as secular or state religion. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I have provided the sources and seem to be repeating what was said before (including the mention of the constitution). Please read the discussion and if you still disagree, then we can start a RfC (that will list all the options) to put this to bed once and for all. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The main issue is existing cited reference (World Atlas) still mention Gambia as secular country, and this makes statement on the article and reference to be not aligned. Ckfasdf (talk) 12:11, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

"The Muslim World" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect The Muslim World has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 24 § The Muslim World until a consensus is reached. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you agree in the context of the above statement critically discuss how timbuktu was a model city that development in songhai

Do you agree in the context of the above statement critically discuss how timbuktu was a model city that development in songhai 41.113.117.21 (talk) 08:40, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Missing references

Ref 321 in the current version of the article, used in two places, is "Madden (1975), pp. 423–30". However, nowhere in the article is a full citation given. This seems to go back some way in the article history. A search on Google Books restricted to the year 1975 doesn't find anything for Madden Islam. Any help is welcome in finding the full citation for this source. MartinPoulter (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The same applies to ref. 300 "Turner, H. (1997) pp. 136–38", ref. 307 "Maya Shatzmiller, p. 36." and ref. 310 "Ettinghausen (2003), p. 3", . No citations are given for these books in the present version of the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's been a very long dive into the article history. On 25 February 2007, in this edit, a user added a large block of text. Looking into their contribution record, it emerges that they were moving the text from this version of the Islam article. They copied the whole section with inline refs, but missed out the full citations at the foot of the article. So I've been able to supply citations for Madden (1975), Turner, H. (1997) and Ettinghausen (2003). Still looking for the Maya Shatzmiller ref. The citations are still incomplete and could benefit from web links and other identifiers. MartinPoulter (talk) 21:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The "Maya Shatzmiller, p. 36." ref was added [in this edit]. I found a Maya Shatzmiller book about Labour in Medieval Islamic World, on Google Books and it said that (though not on p36) that tiraz were not really factories: the opposite of what it's used in the article to support. Whatever the truth, the citation is just inadequate, so I've deleted the clause and its citation from the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2024

change Nine Islamic States to Eight, as Turkey does NOT have a state religion. Change from 21 to 22 Secular countries, adding Turkey 82.215.111.75 (talk) 23:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DrowssapSMM 19:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

In the reference [91] Islamic Countries of the World (World Map) Turkey is shown as a secular country. Also, Turkey's Constitution, Article 2 defines Turkey as a secular country; reference [99] 2601:900:4300:57F0:D416:372E:6D5A:F62F (talk) 05:57, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

NPOV:Prediction of Muslim Population

In 1900 Muslims only numbered 200 million followers or 12% of the world population. This percentage drastically increased over the last 100 years due to higher birth rate in Muslim majority countries. Pew Research have estimated the number will be around 2.2 billion in 2030 and 2.8 billion, or 30 percent of world population, in 2050.

Argued by @Humanise

@Manticore could you clarify why you deleted this sentences in a different reason;

First you claimed it was out of topic, poor written (it could targetted non English contributors) or WP:CRYSTAL (but in Religion Growth Population had cited Pew Research estimated).

QalasQalas (talk) 11:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Needs better refs than PEW 2011 and 2015. David notMD (talk) 12:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Aramaic

Welcome to Gboard clipboard, any text you copy will be saved here.

 37.111.137.144 (talk) 14:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

People who embrace islam are way more than people who leave islam

I dont agree with since the number of people who embrace Islam and those who leave Islam are roughly equal the evidence is from 2011 and new reasearch says that the people who leave islam are 25% less than the people entering islam JNext55 (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Conversion to Islam. Moxy🍁 00:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@JNext55: Your personal agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. If you cannot cite a reliable source, then you are not making any sort of constructive suggestion. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Turkey is not an Islamic State

Why is Turkey listed as an Islamic State in the "Government and religion" category? Islam hasn't been the official religion of Turkey since 1928. Even though the current President (Erdoğan) is an Islamist, the Constitution of Turkey still declares Turkey to be Secular. It should be moved back to Secular State, before the vandalism on the page. 142.67.89.165 (talk) 00:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You are correct. It probably got put there because over 99% of the population is Muslim. Our article on Turkey calls it a secular state, as does the cited source in this article, so I have moved it to the Secular section. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2024

Move Turkey to secular states to fix vandalism, possibly remove edit rights of repeat vandals. ElementLover (talk) 10:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 10:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2024 (2)

change Nine Islamic States to Eight, as Turkey does NOT have a state religion. Change from 21 to 22 Secular countries, adding Turkey. (Sorry for not following the format in the previous request, new around here, sources that are currently added for Turkey support the change I am proposing, no need for new sources). ElementLover (talk) 10:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Already done Please do not submit duplicate requests. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 10:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I realised I didn't follow the correct format for requests hence made another one to fix before realising I could have just edited the previous one instead. Sorry for the ignorance. ElementLover (talk) 10:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No problem at all. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 10:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2024

After prophet Muhammad add SAW e.h Prophet Muhammad SAW or PBUH which translates to peace be upon him 137.59.218.233 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 09:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, the change I recommend is to add a sentence to this paragraph: "In 2010, 73% of the world's Muslim population lived in countries where Muslims are in the majority, while 27% of the world's Muslim population lived in countries where Muslims are in the minority. India's Muslim population is the world's largest Muslim-minority population in the world (11% of the world's Muslim population). Jones (2005) defines a "large minority" as being between 30% and 50%, which described nine countries in 2000, namely Eritrea, Ethiopia, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, North Macedonia, and Tanzania." in the Geography section. The new sentence, to be added to the end, is as follows:

"As of 2024, Nigeria no longer fits into this category, as it is now over 50% Muslim, a slight majority. "

Here are my sources: : https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0081/#:~:text=Nigeria%20is%20Africa's%20most%20populous,to%20the%20CIA%20World%20Factbook. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/nigeria/#:~:text=Muslim%2053.5%25%2C%20Roman%20Catholic%2010.6,0.6%25%20(2018%20est.) https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/nigerial/

Thank you for your consideration. Rahiz123 (talk) 05:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Duplicate of request below, which has been done. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024

Change

Jones (2005) defines a "large minority" as being between 30% and 50%, which described nine countries in 2000, namely Eritrea, Ethiopia, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, North Macedonia, and Tanzania.[5]

to

Jones (2005) defines a "large minority" as being between 30% and 50%, which described nine countries in 2000, namely Eritrea, Ethiopia, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, North Macedonia, and Tanzania.[5]. As of 2024, Nigeria no longer fits into this category, as it is now over 50% Muslim, a slight majority.

Sources: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0081/#:~:text=Nigeria%20is%20Africa's%20most%20populous,to%20the%20CIA%20World%20Factbook. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/nigeria/#:~:text=Muslim%2053.5%25%2C%20Roman%20Catholic%2010.6,0.6%25%20(2018%20est.) https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/nigerial/ Rahiz123 (talk) 05:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done, but with more concise wording. Only one reliable source is needed; I used CIA World Factbook. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Mongol invasions

History section of this article is missing important clues about the Mongol Empire, and the destruction throughout the Silk Road.

03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)103.245.194.28 (talk)\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Propose merging into Ummah, it's the same concept. HudecEmil (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• IMO there is a big overlap but they do not precisely mean exactly the same thing. The ummah refers to the actual community of muslim adherents while the muslim world is more of a geographic concept that can sometimes include countries with mixed populations of multiple religions that are sometimes governed by muslims and sometimes not. The word islamosphere redirects here for example. Jorahm (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

al-Jahiz misrepresented

Al-Jahiz#Kitāb_al-Ḥayawān_(كتاب_الحيوان)_'book_of_the_animal' is described as "a pioneer in evolutionary thought" on this page, but take a look at the extensive quotes on his personal page and it's clear this claim is, at best, contested by scholars. Actual historians (rather than medical doctors like the current cite) writing about him say "He believed that God had done the making and that he had done it brilliantly. He took divine creation and intelligent design for granted..." and claim made by some authors that al-Jahiz was an early evolutionist is "unconvincing". To avoid WP:UNDUE, this claim should be removed, or an appropriate discussion should be added about his place in the history of evolutionary thought. Hi! (talk) 08:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Seconding this. Pogenplain (talk) 15:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

this leaves out the sources that establish what he contributed to the theory of evoluton was the recognition of principles like survival of the fittest. he did not provide a rebuttal to creationism but one can be a pioneer in evolutionary thought while differing on what modern scholars later came to understand. for example darwin had no knowledge of DNA just as mendal had no knowledge of natural selection but they are also both major contributors to the theory of evolution Jorahm (talk) 17:11, 29 September 2024 (UTC)