Talk:Nikita Zotov

Possible hooks

• ...that the tutor of Peter the Great, Nikita Zotov, became the "Prince-Pope" of "The All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters"?
  • Soap, awadewit and the_ed17 prefer this one. NW (Talk) 02:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Looks like now, I will need to create an article on the Synod. I think I can just split it off this one, and add a few more sources + the journal entries below.
  • Currently nominated for DYK. NW (Talk) 01:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
• ...that Nikita Zotov was the Prince-Pope of The All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters?
• ...that Nikita Zotov was the Prince-Pope of Peter the Great's All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters?

Comments towards GA

A few suggestions as to what needs to be done to get this article ready for a GA nomination, as requested.

• Obviously the lead needs to be expanded.

• The Death section is very short and rather abrupt. Is it not known where Zotov died, of what, or where he was buried? Was there any kind of service?

• The nararrative is rather difficult to follow in several places, and needs someone to look at it with fresh eyes, For instance:

• "Ivan Miloslavsky, Feodor's uncle and chief minister, came back to Moscow after having been virtually exiled as the Governor of Astrakhan. Though Ivan Miloslavsky managed to arrest Tsar Alexis' wife's foster father, Artamon Matveyev instead of assigning him to "some ceremonial post" as was traditionally done, Tsar Feodor liked both his half-brother Peter and Peter's mother, Natalia Naryshkina, and both were allowed to remain in the Kremlin in private apartments." Apart from the fact that this sentence is too long and needs to be broken, the "though [he] managed to arrest ..." just comes out of the blue. Why would the reader be expecting that he wanted to arrest Tsar Alexis' wife's foster father?

• At several points Peter is referred to as "Peter the Great" at a time in his life before he was Tsar, and therefore not Peter the Great.

• There seems to be a very large gap in the account of Zotov's life between him "being taken away" from Peter and his reappearance as "Prince-Pope of Drunken Synod". When was this group set up? How did Peter and Zotov become reacquainted? What was Zotov up to in the meantime? Apart from being Prince-Pope what occupied Zotov's time between him being dismissed as Peter's teacher and his appointment to the group?

--Malleus Fatuorum 15:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help Malleus. I'll do my best to address all of those points, though I wish my source materials were a bit more accurate. I think I just have the lead left to do though. NW (Talk) 15:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible sources

From [1]. Sources gone through are struck out.

• S. M. Solovyov, History of russia from antiquity (my translation), vol. 16, chapter 3 Соловьев Сергей Михайлович "История России с древнейших времен" 1866 - heavy reading. History, not about Zotov in particular. Search for Зотов or Zotov to find bits on his sons.
• ibid, Vol. 16, chapter 1
• ibid, Vol. 14, chapter 2
• ibid, Vol. 14, chapter 3
• Mirror site for the Solovyov's book (just in case)
• Klyuchevski, Russian history Ключевский Василий Осипович. Курс русской истории. 1904
• Mirror of Klyuchevski's book
• There is a contradiction in sources on Zotov's death (either 1718 or 1717), Zotov was a keen drinker.
• [2] said he had 3 sons, Vasilii, Konon and Ivan.
  • Could you point me to the appropriate page here? I'm having trouble finding the information. NW (Talk) 23:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Google books tricks. I am positive it was on page 488, as I put in the above link, but google doesn't show me the page now. I recall other sources on that. (maybe left on your talk page - on 3 sons and daughter. If this is an issue, I should be able to find mirrors on that.) Materialscientist (talk) 23:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Do you think you could find mirrors? It would be much appreciated. NW (Talk) 23:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
• [3] Ламбин Н.П. История Петра Великого. — СПб.: Типография Ф.И. Эльснера, 1844. С. 42—43. (Lambin, History of Peter the Great, 1844, pp. 42-43) says teaching started on 12 March 1677.
  • Could you help me fill in the Work and publisher fields for this one? I'm afraid I cannot determine it 100%. NW (Talk) 23:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
• [4] The first wife of Zotov brought him 3 sons and a daughter Agraphena, and died some time after 1706.
  • I don't think that this would pass the Reliable Source standards, but I could be wrong. What do you think? NW (Talk) 23:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Give me some time to sort out daily urgent matters. Yes, this source has attributes of non-RS, but it is signed by Dr. V.V. Kochetkova, senior staff member of some (Lytkrinskii) museum, which is geographically bound to Zotov's 1st wife. That was the best I could ever find on her - women were largely ignored in old Russia. Materialscientist (talk) 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• • • • Sure thing; take your time. I'm not going anywhere. NW (Talk) 00:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • NW asked me to weigh in on the reliability of the above site. I'll admit I had to use Google Translate to read the site, but it does look suspiciously like an internet forum. I see that MS above has said that the relevant posting is by an expert, but, of course, anyone could use that name on the forum, right? Perhaps this information could be found at a museum site that the person is employed at? Awadewit (talk) 01:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

          Notes on Russian reality: local museums have so little funding that they do not operate on the internet, blogs are nearly the only way for them to speak out. It is a blog and someone could sign with that name - it is entirely up to you to decide whether or not to include that source. Materialscientist (talk) 01:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• [5] Biography of Konon Zotov Materialscientist (talk) 12:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Gah. I really want to use this, but I think it fails the self-published source test. Who exactly is Alexander Polenov? NW (Talk) 04:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

    The site is collection of texts extracted from these documents. At the end of every paragraph (on Zotov page) there are cited sources. Alex Polenov, Russian National Library. There should be more information on him somewhere, but I couldn't find quickly and guess it is easier just email him. He has other sites like this one, which seem active. Materialscientist (talk) 04:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Short info on sons. Let me know where you need me to fill up all citation fields. Also let me know if you need more sites on the sons - this is quite easy. I picked those which are properly referenced. Info on his daughter, Agraphena, is really hard to find. Many sources go to Пекарский (Pekarskii) who is credited for his factual accuracy devoid of personal interpretation (which some treated as ridiculous). He had access to the original historical archives.

• Ivan:

  Зотов Иван Никитич source: Биографический словарь (Bibliograhic dictionary), sites Пекарский "Наука и литература при Петре Великом в России".

  Зотов Иван Никитич source: Энциклопедический словарь Ф.А. Брокгауза и И.А. Ефрона

• Vasilii

  Зотов, Василий Никитич Sources: С. Петровский, "О Сенате в царствование Петра Великого", стр. 159—162. — Павлов-Сильванский, "Проекты реформ в записках современников Петра Великого", стр. 73—75, 140. — "История Правительствующего Сената за 200 лет (1711—1911 г.)". т. I, стр. 75—77, 204—207, 209, 210, 291, 337

• Konon

  Зотов Конон Никитич source: Биографический словарь (Bibliograhic dictionary), which in turn cites Общий Морской Список, т. I. СПб., 1885 г., стр. 156—158. — Соловьев, "История России", т. IV, стр. 16, 161, 162, 163, 224, 225, 236; т. V, стр. 524, 823. — Павлов-Сильванский, "Проекты реформ в записках современников Петра Великого", стр. 55, 68—73, 75, 76. — Пекарский, "Наука и литература при Петре Великом", т. I, стр. 155—162. — "История Сената за 200 лет", т. I, стр. 197, 200. — Евгений, митр., "Словарь рус. светских писателей", т. I, стр. 233.

  Зотов Конон Никитич source: Энциклопедический словарь Ф.А. Брокгауза и И.А. Ефрона, which sites Пекарский, "Наука и литература при Петре В." (письма З.); Соловьев, "Ист. России" (т. XVI, гл. 3); Берх, "Жизнеописание росс. адмиралов" (ч. II).

Source formatting

Do you think you could fill in as many parameters as possible for the following? Thanks, NW (Talk) 23:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• Boguslavsky, Vladimir V. (2004). "Зотов Никита Моисеевич". Славянская энциклопедия: XVII век в 2-х томах, Volume 1 (in Russian). Olma Media Group. p. 488. ISBN 5224022495. Retrieved 2009-09-06. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_chapter= ignored (|trans-chapter= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
• Solovyov, Sergey M. (2001) [1866]. "Глава третья. Продолжение царствования Петра I Алексеевича". История России с древнейших времен (in Russian). Vol. 16. Moscow: AST. ISBN 517002536X. Retrieved 2009-09-06. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Unknown parameter |trans_chapter= ignored (|trans-chapter= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

"Antiquity" is better English than "Earliest times", but the latter is in the Solovyov's article, don't know.. Materialscientist (talk) 01:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Dating of onset of lessons

I've now looked it up in Wittram (still the most scholarly biography on Peter, I dare say confidently), and I think we're getting some place there. He states (vol. I, p. 88) that after the political change of 1682, Peter continued to have lessons consistently; since 1683, "as can be proved", by Nikita Zotov and Afanassyi Nesterov. So, I hope that would explain the problem. Of course he had lessons before 1683, but we don't know for sure by whom. The curriculum seems to have embraced religion (the Bible and other books) and some History and Geography. Incidentally, he cites M.M. Bogolovsky and says that all authors rely on Vasily Kluchevsky for Peter's education. Nuclear Warfare, I leave it to you how to use this info, as you know I would get into trouble with that citation template anyway...The work by Wittram is in the Bibliography already. Buchraeumer (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this piece of information; it is very helpful. What do you think of this overall edit? NW (Talk) 05:54, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Translation requested

If you could help me improve the following automated translations, it would be much appreciated. The information there sounds useful, but Google and Babelfish aren't giving me useful translations. I know this is a ton of work, but any help would be useful. NW (Talk) 04:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much! NW (Talk) 23:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Request 1

 Done Information incorporated. NW (Talk) 03:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Original

Указами, угрозами, вызовом доносителей дело не ограничилось. Мы видели, что вместе с учреждением Сената Петр учредил и фискалов. В августе 1711 года старик Зотов взял на себя звание государственного фискала: "Понеже видя беспорядок, господин граф Никита Моисеевич Зотов взял на себя сие дело государственного фискала, т. е. надсмотрителя, дабы никто от службы не ухоронивался и прочего худа не чинил, и сей свой уряд подписал своею рукой".[6]

Automatic Translation corrected

The case did not stop with decrees, threats and hearing reports of snitches. We saw that together with the establishment of the Senate, Peter also set up oversighters. In August 1711, old Zotov took the post of a state oversighter: "Seeing disorder, Count Nikita Moiseevich Zotov took over this post of a state oversighter, so that no-one would evade his duties or do other harm, and (Zotov) signed that with his own hand"

Request 2

 Done Information incorporated. NW (Talk) 03:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Original

Мы видели, как в молодости Петр праздновал свадьбу шута. В 1714 году кокуйский патриарх Никита Моисеевич Зотов вздумал на старости лет жениться. Петр сначала был против этого странного брака, но потом уступил желанию старика и не упустил случая, чтобы отпраздновать свадьбу всешутейшего с особенным блеском и торжеством. Это торжество происходило в начале 1715 года. Все приглашенные должны были явиться кто в польском, кто в испанском, кто в старонемецком, кто в турецком платье. Составлен был список, кого приглашать на свадьбу; составлен был таким образом: "Позвать вежливо, особливым штилем, не торопясь, того, кто фамилиею своею гораздо старее чорта" или: "Того бы не забыть, кто пятнадцать дней чижика приискивал, да не сыскал; не знаю о том, может ли он и то сыскать, куда он устремляется и куда гости призываются и торжество приготовляется; того человека, кто в Алепе родился, того, кто кушать приуготовить умеет; того, кто не по силе борца сыскал" и т. п. Свадьба Зотова заслужила в потомстве особенное внимание: одни вооружаются против неприличия этого торжества, другие стараются оправдать его и вообще хотят видеть здесь насмешку над патриаршеством, желание унизить сан, который хотелось уничтожить. Но мы знаем, что это была просто игра в короли, папы и патриархи - игра, понятная при тогдашнем состоянии юного общества. Зотов назывался кокуйским патриархом еще тогда, когда настоящий патриарх был в Москве, когда, по всем вероятностям, не западала еще мысль об уничтожении патриаршества; теперь этот кокуйский, шутовской, патриарх вздумал жениться, и свадьбу его отпраздновали приличным его званию образом. Если предположить, что Петр хотел насмеяться над патриаршеством, то надобно предположить, что он хотел насмеяться и над своею собственною царскою властию, потому что у него был и шутовской пресбургский король, впоследствии кесарь; со смертию старика Зотова шутовское патриаршество упразднилось, но остался князь-папа в соответствие князю-кесарю.[7]

Automated Translation corrected (my comments in brackets) Materialscientist (talk) 0532, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

We have seen how in his youth Peter was celebrating a wedding of his jester (another one). In 1714 the jester patriarch Nikita Moiseevich Zotov decided to marry, in his old age. Peter was first against this strange marriage, but then gave up the old man's request and did not miss a chance to celebrate the jester wedding with a special brilliance and triumph. This celebration took place in early 1715. All invitees should dress uncommonly, such in Polish, Spanish, German, or Turkish garment. (An internal) list was prepared of whom to invite and how to announce at the wedding, for example: "This person is to be announced politely, calm, without haste, as his family is much older than the devil" or: "(this word game is hard to translate. It jockingly tells to invite jacks of all weird trades and skills)". Zotov's wedding earned special attention of the contemporaries: some blame its impropriety, others try to justify it and do see it as mockery of the patriarchate - desire to humiliate the titles which they wanted to have destroyed. However we know that it was just a game of kings, popes and patriarchs - an understandable game given the immature state of the society. Even then, Zotov was called kokuyskii (jester) patriarch - although the genuine patriarch was in Moscow, and there was no thought then of dismantling the patriarchs - that jester patriarch (Zotov) decided to marry, and his wedding was celebrated according to his public image. If we assume that Peter wanted to laugh at patriarchs, then we must assume that he laughed at himself too, because he had a jester King of Pressburg (mocking "Petersburg"), then renamed to Caesar. With the death of old Zotov, jester patriarchate was abolished, but the position remained of Prince Pope, which mocked the Prince-Caesar.

Request 3

 Done Information incorporated. NW (Talk) 03:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Original

Знаменитый Никита Моисеевич Зотов умер; незадолго перед смертию он вздумал жениться на вдове Стремоуховой. Тотчас по смерти старика между его сыновьями и мачехою началась тяжба Самый живой из братьев, уже известный нам Конон Никитич Зотов, писал весною 1719 года два письма: одно - к царю, другое - к Макарову, любопытные по отношению к лицу и к нравам эпохи к Макарову он писал, возвращаясь из-за границы: "Вящая моя печаль, что я знаю, с чем еду, а к чему еду, того не знаю, т. е. нет у меня ни отца, ни матери, ни дому, ни покрова. Хоть братья меня по своей милости не оставят, только сердцу моему несносно быть у них в милостыни! Мне уже без года 30 лет, как еще 10 лет, то пора будет идти в попы. Ныне я бессчастнее всякой твари, ибо птицы гнездо имут и лисы язвины имут, а я, бедный, не имею где головы моей приклонить, разве веселиться Невою рекою и петь песню: "Если кто хочет жити без кручины, тот бы ехал к нам на матушку на Неву реку". Если к слову, прошу донести о моей бедности, где надлежит: истинно никакая милость меня не избалует; а на шальных топор и виселица еще есть!" К Петру Зотов писал по делу с мачехою: "От краткости времени и от превеликой моей печали о смерти отца моего, также и от чрезвычайной моей прискорбности, наносимой от госпожи Анны Еремеевны Пашковых по отце, пред тем бывшей за капитаном-поручиком Стремоуховым, а в последних изволившей быть за отцем моим, обретающимся в младенческом состоянии, не могу иную челобитную принесть, только предисловие к читателю, которое я учинил для книги о морских экзерцициях. Умилосердись, царь государь, и помилуй от обиды наглой, безбогобоязливой и бесстыдной: наглая обида для того, что ее (мачехи) не знал, ни в чем не озлоблена была от меня, также и от братьев моих; безбогобоязливая для того, что за такого шла в противность богу, а бесстыдная, что ведала, что вашему величеству и всем тебе подражающим весьма было противно такого старика уморить плотскою похотью. Ученейшие меня легистаторы во Франции положили, что человек, который перешел за 70 лет, не может ничем и ни в чем определять, и тако женитьба в летах отца нашего весьма не почитается женитьбою что надлежит до наследства. Дай боже, чтобы Сенат все сии права знал. Не от помраченного ли ума сие происходит и не во тьме ли ходят некоторые сенаторы, что вершат дело наше против намерения вашего величества, оставя уже духовную отца нашего? Намерение вашего величества есть такое, чтоб фамилии всегда были в неущербаемом состоянии, а они ущербают нашу фамилию отдачею в чужой род, мачехе нашей, четвертой части из движимого и недвижимого; как же еще к тому, если из нас, трех братов (на приклад все женаты), два умрут бездетны, то еще женам, вдовам, надобно также отдать по четвертой части, и так третий брат останется при одной четверти имения отца своего!"[8]

Automated Translation corrected Materialscientist (talk) 0558, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Famous Nikita Moiseevich Zotov died; shortly before his death he had decided to marry the widow Stremouhova. Right after his death a quarrel started between his sons and widow. The most active of the brothers, known to us as Konon Nikitich Zotov, wrote in the spring of 1719 two unusually composed letters: one - to the tzar, the other - to Makarov. To Makarov, he wrote while returning from abroad: "My good grief is that I know what I carry, but not where I'm coming to (word game), as I have neither father nor mother or home or shelter. Though my brothers will help me, its not in my nature to be on their mercy. I am 29 years old already, 10 more years and it's time to become a monk. Now I am poorer than any creature, as even birds have nests and foxes have burrows, but I have no shelter and can only wonder along the Neva river and sing a sad song. (word games again).. To Peter Zotov wrote on the case with my stepmother: "... (a word game, in a complex old-Russian style, expressing his humility, grief over father's death and dissatisfaction with stepmother). In France, I have learned that a person over 70, like my father was, may not decide over his well-being, and thus my father's marriage should be illegal too. I believe that it is your magesty's will to keep well the old Russian families, but this marriage had forfeited a quarter of our family estate to the family of our stepmother. Further, among the three sons two are married, and if they die with no children then other parts will move to their wifes too, so that only quarter of our estate will stay in the family!

Request 4

 Done Information incorporated. NW (Talk) 03:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Original

По примеру царя и членов царского дома русские дворяне в описываемое время начали ездить за границу лечиться. Царь, разумеется, не отказывал в позволении желающим, но были другие препятствия. В этом отношении любопытна история того же семейства Зотовых. Мы знакомы с двоими сыновьями Никиты Моисеевича - Васильем и Кононом; но был еще третий брат, Иван, которому отец не позволял служить, а употреблял для управления имением. Иван заболел и писал Макарову: "Известно вам, что брат мой Конон также чрез великую силу вашим предстательством избыл из дворничества в службу государеву; я ныне, бедный, закоснел и в скорби упал по воле отцовой, понеже держал меня для деревень под клятвою и ни в какую службу не выпускал; а ныне как увидал, что я весьма болен, по желанию некоторых считал меня в расходе десять лет, от чего я едва не умер, однако отчет дал; а потом и кормить, как сына надлежит, не соизволяет, а своим мне прожить нечем". Иван просил позволения ехать лечиться за границу и по этому поводу писал самому царю: "Премилосердым вашего величества природным человеколюбием призирая на мою погибель, повелено мне для исцеления тайной моей конечной скорби, чтоб здесь не исчезнуть, ехать в теплицы французские, о чем указ из Кабинета вашего величества и пашпорт из канцелярии иностранных дел ко мне был отправлен; и тот указ я получил, а пашпорт и поныне удержан у господина моего отца, который за жалостию разлучения и для строения дому и поныне меня не отпускает, не рассуждая того, что я в такой моей злой болезни безвременно погибну и, пока жив, не токмо вашему величеству в службу, ниже кому-либо годен быть могу. Слезно молю человеколюбивые ваши щедроты: повели мне всемилосердым вашим собственным указом ехать к Архангельскому городу и оттоль чрез Амстердам в теплицы, где, свободясь от скорби, возмог бы вам, государю, служить подобно, как и брат мой Конон, который, если б не вашею взят был монаршею рукою, и поныне закоснел быв крестьянских судейках, как и я пребываю по се время"[9]

Automated Translation corrected Materialscientist (talk) 0622, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

By example of the tzar and royal family, Russian nobles of the said time started going abroad for health treatment. Naturally, tzar didn't mind, but there were occasional obstacles. In this regard, interesting is the story of Zotov's family. We know already of two sons of Nikita Moiseyevich - Vasili and Kononov, but there was a third one, Ivan, whom father spared from state service, and left to manage the family estate. Ivan got ill, and wrote to Makarov: "It is known to me that my brother Konon turned, through your assistance, from nobody to a tzar's servant, and here I am too, left through my father's will to our estate, far from any service or career, half-dead; my father does not even feed me like a son, and I got nothing to feed myself". Ivan asked permission to go abroad to recover his health and wrote to tzar: "(in a groovy old-Russian style) not to vanish here, need I go to the French warmth, for which an order was dispatched from your department together with an international passport. The order did I receive, but the passport is held with my father, who doesn't care that I may die here and turn useless to your magesty. I beg your magesty to let me go to Arkhangelsk-city and from there to Amsterdam to recover, so that I could serve you later as my brother Konon does, who otherwise would get lost too for your service, in family matters as I am."

Request 5

 Done Information incorporated. NW (Talk) 03:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Page 487 from here looks like it could possibly be useful. NW (Talk) 04:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Zotov, Nikita Moiseevich, .. (titles).., teacher of Peter I. Born around 1644. In 1677, boyar F. P. Sokovnin recommended Zotov to tsar Fedor Alekseevich as a grammar teacher for the 5-yrs-old Peter. 12 March of the same year Zotov started his duties. A nobleman and amateur historicist P. N. Krekshin described that process (as adjusted later by Klyuchevskii). Arrival to the palace: "Sokovnin brought Zotov to tsar, left at the doors and went to tsar with a report. Then another nobleman went out and called "who is Zotov here" Zotov got stoned from excitement and fear and asked a minute to get together. Then prayed and went to tsar, who gave him reading exam in presence of Polotskii. Polotskii found him fit and Sokovnin then brought Zotov to the queen (tsarina). She took Zotov holding young Peter by his hand and said "Knowing your good virtues and skills in religeous writing, I entrust you the teaching of my only son". Zotov fell into tears and trembling fell (on his knees I guess; can't see next page). Materialscientist (talk) 06:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Information incorporated

I think I managed to include all the information I could from the sources that you gave me. Do you think you could take a look at the article again, Materialscientist? NW (Talk) 03:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments and questions

• Why there is ref. [1] right after Zotov's name (4th word on the lead) ?
  • It references his middle name and his status as a count, which I would think would normally be completely uncontroversial, except the fact that it appears in perhaps an seventh of all sources.
• Should "Harvnb" in ref. 3 be "Hughes"?
  • Fixed, thanks.
• I suggest asking someone to check the style before the FAC.
  • Yep, I was definitely planning on doing so; it needs a decenmt cleanup.
• I changed "Zotov was chosen to be Peter's tutor in the late seventeenth century. Zotov taught Peter about both religion and secular events, though Peter never truly learned writing, mathematics, or philosophy well as a result of the short time that Zotov taught Peter." as IMO it was clearly disbalancing the lead, going too far from the subject and getting too speculative - we hardly know what and how did Peter learn. As to philosophy, I am quite certain it was not taught to anyone in Russia around that time.
  • That makes sense; thanks
• "despite the fact that Massie states that Peter did not learn of good writing or foreign languages, at least in the year 1709, Zotov translated books from a Western European language into Russian and Peter would correct them," this part seems incorrect as Peter was learning foreign languages through all his life, especially during his trip to Europe (1697—1698) and in his communications with foreigners he invited to Russia. I know Peter was fluent in Dutch, which means he could also understand at least some German.
  • You know, I am sure that Massie does state that latter fact later in his book as well. I have changed that paragraph around some; what do you think?

    Better.

• An irrelevant note, I have just read a quote of Vasily Klyuchevsky in russian wiki - "all memebers of the All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod had nicknames, which at no state of censorship in Russia will be allowed in print" .. Well, it finally got there, but only some 15 years go. For example, the Peter's nick was something like f***er (in its very direct meaning). Russian wiki digged out a printed list of all those nicks for all members of the Synod. Materialscientist (talk) 10:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Haha. Do see if you can add some details to The All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters :)

If I were writing this article, I would try to focus more on the subject and his character, and some facts. It is really hard to dig facts, e.g., I tried to "disprove" that Zotov's 2nd wife was 50 yrs younger than him (he was 70, she was a widow by then - well, not impossible), but couldn't get anything, same as for his first wife. We know a bit more on his character - that he was a drinker, that he was deeply moved by being assigned to teach Peter, that the was harsh to corrupted officials and to his sons, etc. On the other hand, for FAC, it is probably more important to have a nicely flowing text rather than abundance of facts. This flow should compensate lack of facts, which make the present article too abrupt at times. Materialscientist (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that Zotov was of Jewish background? Given his patronym, it sounds plausible.--Jrm2007 (talk) 08:55, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Could be possible, but nothing that I saw in my research makes reference to Zotov's background. However, considering this, I would say it is unlikely. NW (Talk) 17:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

One of the most interesting FA's I've seen -- thanks! Sca (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for reading it and for the thanks! NW (Talk) 17:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Concur with Sca. More of this kind of thing please, rather than stuff purely related to the main English speaking countries, or ephemeral pop culture. Have to say, despite being interested in Peter, I wasn't aware of Zotov.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)