Talk:Varroa destructor

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 13 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): R0a01gz. Peer reviewers: Kmj2016, Savannahcallie.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Varrioatosis

I think we should separate the topic Varrioatosis into its own article...I am not an expert on this subject, but it appears that other species of Varroa cause varrioatosis in other species of honeybee...it is not limited to varroa destructor infesting apis mellifera and thus should not simply be a topic in this article --Erudy 16:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Standard foundation is 5.4mm so 4.9mm is .5mm smaller. Michael Bush 19:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of the methods under behavioral should be moved to mechanical. In fact most of them should. Scot.mcpherson 14:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

'Until recently'

Can I suggest to re-phrase the sentence where 'until recently' was used? This in order to make sure that the sentence is still correct if read when 'until recently' is not that recently ;) (i.e: change 'until recently' to 'until late May 2007' or something... Stephanvaningen 19:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

'Sticky board'

I'm a new beewhatcher, so I'm hesitant to edit the article, but it states, "Screened bottom board with sticky board. It separates mites that fall through the screen and the sticky board prevents them from crawling back up." It's my understanding that the mites cannot crawl back up to re-enter the hive, that it's called a sticky board because making it sticky prevents the mites from getting dislodged during removal or transport and it only needs to be sticky when doing a mite count. Nonukes 02:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Be Bold! But find a source for your statement.--Blue Tie 16:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

'coumophose is VX'

Aside from both being organophosphates, there is no connection that I could discern. Coumaphos (note spelling) is "moderately toxic by inhalation and dermal absorption" (http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/coumapho.htm). Please feel free to undo my edit if you can show otherwise. 75.26.166.70 (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Organophosphates in general were first studied seriously as a spinoff from nerve gas research, so there is a historical connection as well as the chemical similarity. I think that's documented fairly well in the relevant Wikipedia articles on the individual compounds. However, the "organophosphates = NERVE GAS OMG!" thing is a distortion spread by certain well-meaning but misinformed political groups. (And maybe people who read Zodiac without realizing that even "hard" science fiction is still fiction.) The ones used as insecticides are not the same ones used as chemical weapons, for obvious reasons - chemical weapons are tuned to be toxic to humans, while insecticides are tuned to be as non-toxic to humans as possible while still being toxic to the targeted insects. 67.158.74.7 (talk) 00:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Chemical methods

Under 'synthetic chemicals' you will find Manley's thymol and sugar spirit mixture as food; both sugar spirits and thymol (as thyme essential oil) are listed as naturally occurring chemicals. Do they stop being naturally occurring chemicals when you mix them together? --216.67.4.177 (talk) 19:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jseyrak (talk • contribs) 13:13, 29 October 2011 (UTC) 

Introduction around the world

May I note the section of the article where it states 'As of the second half of 2010, Australia was thought to be free of the mite.[7]'I believe from my understanding that officially Australia is not a confirmed country that harbors Varroa destructor, however if this has indeed changed recently it would be probably best to cite a more reliable source other than the Sydney Morning Herald, as has been done with this statement. (JS10/11) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jseyrak (talk • contribs) 13:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The information is clearly linked to a time (based on a source that is considered reliable), and therefore makes no claims about the current situation. Of course an update would be welcome, so feel free... GFHandel ♬  20:54, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Source for "cessation of drone rearing causes mites to switch to worker larvae causing quick pop. crash"?

"High mite populations in the autumn can cause a crisis when drone rearing ceases and the mites switch to worker larvae, causing a quick population crash and often hive death." -- Is there a source for this conclusion that references the loss of drone rearing and thus "switching to worker larve" as the cause?

178.12.116.229 (talk) 11:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Abbreviations

Any particular reason why there is so much abbreviation in the identification section? I personally find it harder to read.Cliff (talk) 03:24, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Once a genus is mentioned it is pretty standard to abbreviate the genus as the article progresses. Gotta say, that when studying mites these abbreviations are the easy stuff. Here is something from the Bee Mite ID webpage, (cited bottom of the Varroa article):

Diagnosis

Female: Gnathosoma with 3 pairs hypostomal setae (Fig. 3). Idiosoma transversely oval in outline (Figs. 1, 2). Opisthosoma hypertrichous (Figs. 1, 2, 5). Exopodal IV, epigynal, and matapodal shields enlarged, covering almost all of ventral opisthosoma (Fig. 2). Epigynal and metapodal shields almost touching (Fig. 2). Anal opening ventral (Fig. 2).

In this case, the images referenced help -- kinda. In time you will get used to the abbreviations. Good luck. GeeBee60 (talk) 16:46, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

especially lemon?

lemon & lemongrass is used to attract bees and not especially to treat varroa. what I found in the reference was lavender and thyme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.49.75 (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

No ccd in Ontario

This bit is problematic:

"It may be a contributing factor to colony collapse disorder, as research shows it is the main factor for collapsed colonies in Ontario, Canada"

1. Colony collapse disorder traditionally refers to a specific set of characteristics. There is no evidence of these specific characteristics occuring in Ontario. Using the term CCD is a bit confusing if not misleading if referring to bee deaths in Ontario.
2. The cited research is from 2009. It's not a great link, as it's somewhat outdated, and presents an opinion that is controversial in the bee research community. Guzman, One of the Authors, even admits that he has not studied pesticides in this article.
3. Since 2009 there have been a large amount of acute pesticide poisoning incidents in Ontario, a great deal more research has been conducted, and the province has made large changes to pesticide regulations as a result.
4. The idea that varroa is the 'main factor' in general bee related deaths, should be removed. New research suggests pesticide exposure has a significant impact on bee health, compromises their immune system, and reduces survivability. There is also research suggesting pesticides render bees more susceptible to the impact of varroa mites.

References

Icing sugar treatment comment from edit summary

On 30 December 2017, RichardVwilliams left the text below as comments within an edit summary and a reference tag. I do not have enough knowledge of this subject to know if the comments are worth following up, but they are better placed here than in their original locations:

"Dusting the bees with icing sugar, as they enter the hive, or as they move around the hive, causes them to groom themselves more thoroughly than normal. The grooming removes at least the majority of Varroa Destructor mites. Not published. Recounted by a bee-keeper with several hives - needs verification by a beekeeper who has used the method."

Thanks. Pyrope 14:13, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

In the US, the equivalent term for "icing sugar" is "powdered sugar". Dusting is one of three methods I know of that is recommended for examining a hive and determining whether the mite population has achieved critical mass needing treatment. The statement that their "grooming removes at least the majority" of mites is misleading. It does remove enough for a good body count, but it does not kill mites, and does not affect mites living in the brood.

Here is an overview from one skilled beekeeper: https://honeybeesuite.com/monitoring-mites-with-a-sugar-shake/, and a more in-depth study from another: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting-sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/ GeeBee60 (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Scientific classification

I'm not an expert, but the scientific classification shown on this page (order: parisitiformes, suborder: mesostigmata) looks inconsistent with the classification given on the page for the genus Varroa (order: mesostigmata). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnjuckes (talk • contribs) 21:35, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Varroosis

This section is mostly devoted to a highbrow scolding of people who use the wrong name, with little actually said about varroosis. :-( GeeBee60 (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Fat body does not equal "body fat" (adipose tissue)

"The Varroa mite can only reproduce in a honey bee colony. It attaches to the body of the bee and weakens the bee by sucking fat bodies."

The link to "body fat" (adipose tissue) is incorrect. This is explicitly made clear by Dr. Samuel Ramsey in the following video lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=DK2Xi0ST4rA See also: https://beemaniacs.com/knowledge-base/fat-body/ and for a more technical source here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024794

KMPfeiffer (talk) 09:12, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Varroa sensitive hygiene

We really should add a sub-section at least on this, as there are now Buckfast strains which are varroa resistant (carnica breeders are claiming that they too have some strains within the subspecies which are also resistant through the breeding of VSH). I'll try and start putting a small paragraph together, any contributions / thoughts would be very helpful. --Bibby (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Physical description section

I noticed the section needed citation. here are some sources i found. .--R0a01gz (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Move to common name varroa mite?

Is anyone opposed to changing the name here to the common name Varroa mite instead of species name? Just glancing at the genus article Varroa, but I'm not seeing any other species that hold that common name, and this species is pretty ubiquitously referred to by the sole common name mentioned here. The only caution I could see is if the entire genus is frequently referred to as Varroa mites, but I couldn't find anything for sources really doing that. KoA (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Scratch that, I see sometimes varroa mite is used to describe both species.[1] KoA (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Varroa destructor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 16:47, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments

This is a well-written and well-cited article, so I have only a few minor comments to make.

• "Identification" does not mention how to tell this mite from Varroa jacobsoni. Is DNA sequencing the only option? Normally we explain how to distinguish from similar species.

Unfortunately you really can't go by physical description as the source lays out. It has a slight size difference compared to V. jacobsoni in the order of micrometers I added a bit about, but nothing our audience here could really use. There are some features that this pair has that are different than the other two in the genus that taxonomists may use, but I feel like that would be getting into the weeds for an encyclopedia. One thing sources do often use is a table of what mite species infests which honey bee species, so I have added that to help here. I'll take care of the redlinks for the remaining species in a bit. KoA (talk) 19:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I was afraid that'd be the answer. The table is a definite help. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Please spell out and wikilink names (if possible) on first appearance in the main text, even if you have already done so in the lead (summary) section. E.g. you mention "A. cerana" in "Identification"; you should instead be saying "Apis cerana" at first instance.

 Done. Just to avoid so many abbreviated species names, I stuck with eastern and western honey bee common names when mentioning those species at least.

• "Life cycle" mentions "phoretic" without actually explaining it. It means being a passenger, carried about by the host.

 Done. Clarified this is when mites attached to adults to disperse.[2]

• Please explain why infested bees wander into other hives: the implication is that they are seriously debilitated and start making mistakes, but this needs to be spelt out, with suitable sources.

 Done. I moved that text further down where navigation is addressed more. The why of this has some speculation, but the key thing to mention is that infested bees wander at a higher rate, likely due to reduced learning ability, etc. mentioned just before the text now.

• "suck on the fat body": readers won't know what that is, nor where. Please indicate that it's a tissue rather than an organ (which its name does confusingly suggest), and that it's abundant just under the epidermis.

 Done. Sources do describe it both as an organ and tissue (kind of like skin for humans), but I've added another source and a bit more description in the body that spells out what it is briefly.

• The last paragraph of "Behavior" isn't about behavior at all, but about "Host taxonomic range" (or some such heading), so I suggest making it into a separate section. It might be nice to add a cladogram to illustrate just how wide that (surprising) range is.

Endopterygota	Hymenoptera Vespidae (social wasps) Anthophila Apini (honeybees) Bombini (bumblebees) Aparaglossata Coleoptera Scarabeidae (scarab beetles) Diptera Syrphidae (hoverflies)

I had to go digging on this a bit more (literature is a little sparser on this), but the general sense in sources is that outside of the Apis, these are not true hosts, but more of a dead-end host that happened to pick up the mites at flowers honey bees visited. I added a bit on that, but with that in mind, I don't think a cladogram would be helpful for others like hoverflies or scarab beetles. KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• "Colony collapse disorder" mentions "Varroa mite", but does not name this species; the cited source however does, so it'd be best to say V. destructor instead.

The CCD article also needs a rewrite since delisting (on the to-do list), but Varroa mite is the common name for V. destructor, so the same species is being discussed. I usually try to avoid having the abbreviated species name and have the common name when possible instead throughout the text. If V. destructor still sounds like a better option with this background though, I can replace instances of Varroa mite. KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. But in this article le you say that *most* talk of Varroa mites meant this species, but that V. jacobsoni also affects Eastern honeybees. That clearly means there are *two* species of Varroa mite, and you can't elide that however uncommon the other species is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

This is where things get a little complicated in sources (and likely rankles a few taxonomist hairs in all of us), so just to be sure it's spelled out.

The common name used in sources today for V. destructor = Varroa mite or just varroa mite. Not so great for us because we need to be careful when were are talking about the genus instead as "mites in the genus Varroa", but that's the nature of the subject we're given. The other mites in the genus don't get that common name normally, though I can find a stray source or two that sometimes refers to V. jacobsoni and destructor both as varroa mites.

Prior to 2000 Varroa mite was still used, but it was used for V. jacobsoni because V. destructor hadn't been split out from that species yet.

So with that in mind, we can stick with the official common name Varroa mite, or we can just default to every instance of that being V. destructor. It's kind of a wash for me when I weighed all this and just went with the common name to avoid many instances of abbreviated species names, so I'm good with whatever preference you have after going through this background. KoA (talk) 19:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Um, you're replying at great length here, but the task should not be to convince me: the task is to make the article a) accurate and b) clear. Your recent changes have certainly improved accuracy, but I'm afraid it still won't be clear to the ordinary reader (not a biologist, remember) that "Varroa mite" == V. destructor. What we need is a sentence (just before the welcome table about "Bee hosts") which states that across the Western world, the phrase "Varroa mite" is commonly used to mean just this species, despite the picky taxo-caveats etc etc. Then it will be all right to leave the rest of the text as it is. By the way, even technical authors use the phrase "Varroa mite" without italics (whereas V. destructor must obviously be italicised), so let's format it like that please. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap, just making sure everything made sense with the background in mind. I added a sentence directly on the Varroa mite common name and took out italics in the common names. I think that should do it for items here unless I missed one. KoA (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• In "Chemical measures", the paragraph starting "Synthetic compounds" might be better as a table with columns for Compound, Effectiveness, Comments/side effects (and a row for each compound) to make comparisons more evident.

 Done KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• In "Genetics", the sentence "Efforts also have been made to breed hygienic honey bees, such as Varroa sensitive hygiene..." isn't quite right. The hygiene thingy is a behavior, not a type of bee. Perhaps say "such as those bred to have Varroa sensitive hygiene behavior..." or something of that sort.

It's actually both. The breeds that result are referred to as hygienic honey bee breeds, so it's both a type of bee and variations on the type of heritable behavior. I've clarified this a bit more in the section. KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• The citations variously name authors in the format "John Doe" and "Doe, John". Please choose just one - the "Doe, John" is generally preferable, and it is supported automatically by using the |last=Doe |first=John parameters in the "{{cite journal ...}}" and similar templates.

 Done Looks like it was a handful of old refs that never got updated. KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• It's helpful to readers if notable authors are wikilinked in the citations. E.g. Dave Goulson.

 Done I did a couple, but I didn't spot any other names that would stick out as having BLPs. KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Ref [9] Featured Creatures needs isn't correctly presented. It should have the title, something like "Featured creatures: common name: varroa mite", and publisher, "University of Florida Entomology & Nematology Department", authors (Ellis, James D.; Nalen, C.M. Zettel), and date, October 2022.

 Done KoA (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• A new editor, likely a student, has added a large chunk on "Honeybee's behaviour defense against varroa mite". Apart from being poorly-cited, it's mostly off-topic, especially as there's already a bit on bees' hygienic behaviour above. I suggest you cut the added material, unless there's some small and adequately-cited tidbit you think worth preserving. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done. It was pretty much redundant anyways or would belong over at Varroa sensitive hygiene if someone really wanted to have more depth on the beahvior. KoA (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Smartse

I hope you two don't mind me barging in with a few comments:

• In the lead "feeds on honey bees" and then "honeybee pests" - should there be a space or not? It seems as if both are correct, but it's odd to use different variations in the same sentence.

 Done. Both are correct, I just forget to be consistent with this one.

• The lead makes no mention of any management tactics even though it makes up a substantial chunk of the article body.

 Done.

• Being so similar to V. jacobsoni and the surrounding confusion is probably worth mentioning in the lead.

 Done. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• "higher levels of bee losses" in the lead should either link to or be changed to CCD.

That's a little trickier since CCD is a specific set of symptoms rather than overall honey bee losses beekeepers face (sometimes lay-readers just lump everything as bee declines as CCD, so we have to be careful about that). I did add a sentence about CCD specifically though. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• The order of sentences in the second paragraph of Identification seems a bit off - "Because of this, most pre-2000..." sounds like it would be better after explaining that it doesn't attack Western honeybees.

 Done. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• This may just be me, but at first I presumed that eastern and western was referring to USA coasts. I've no idea what is more widely used, in the literature, but European and Asian would have made things more understandable for me. I also see that in Range that this is the terminology used - it should at least be consistent within the article.

I debated on this too since the Asian/eastern goes by a few different names, but western honey bee is the article common name for the other species. Asian makes sense since it's (mostly) confined to that region, but European/western is used more widespreadly across the globe and not just Europe. They're interchangeable, but does going with western/Asian common names help differentiate things better? KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Much better now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Most organism articles have a section on taxonomy. I see that this is included in the identification section, but have you considered splitting it out or changing the section title to make it easier for a reader to find? Description and Taxonomy is one option.

 Done. I usually like to avoid redundancy by having description/taxonomy together, so I've added to the section title. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• The sentence on RNA interference reads quite clunkily and it sounds as if it is only experimental rather than in use. I'd suggest moving it to after the info on resistance/breeding.

 Done. From what I can see too, it's past proof of concept, but is in the top of the ongoing research list, so I didn't give it further mention. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• "Males will not leave brood cells." So the females mate with them before they emerge then?

Correct. I had more info a couple paragraphs later where more mating discussion was addressed. Sources usually try to follow the female lifecycle in narratives and mention the males when relevant, so I tried to stick to that framework instead of bouncing between the two. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Varroa sensitive hygiene could/should be made more prominent by linking to it with {{main}} or {{further}}.

 Done for both this and CCD. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• I know GA isn't FA, but there is no mention of genomics in the article which seems like an omission: [3]

 Done. I pulled from a few genetics articles for relevant info.[4] Most of it is focused either on differentiating the two closely related species, when the split occurred (around the 1950s), and genetic bottlenecks, etc. associated with a new species. KoA (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• SmartSE (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

@KoA: Thanks - that looks mostly good. Just a few follow ups - The RNAi info is now out of place in a section on bee genetics - it might be better under chemical control. In the last comment you say "when the split occurred (around the 1950s)" - do you mean that V. destructor only split from V. jacobsoni then? That seems like an important detail which I can't see in the article at present. Kind of related, but reading the V. jacobsoni article I see that they are more generalist instead of purely parasitic, which would also be worth mentioning here. SmartSE (talk) 16:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh also - it would be good to explain what drones are. SmartSE (talk) 16:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary

This species article is necessarily more technical than those of many other species because of taxonomic changes, introducing quite a bit of complexity which needed to be more fully explained. The changes have made the article significantly clearer and more readable, and it now gives an excellent introductory overview of this economically important species. There is just one small item outstanding. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton talk 16:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Adult female Varroa mite

• ... that Varroa destructor, the Varroa mite, is an external parasitic mite that attacks and feeds on honey bees and is one of the most harmful honey bee pests in the world? Source: Zakar et al. 2014 "Currently, the Varroa destructor mite is the most serious parasite of honey bees (Apis mellifera) and has become a nearly cosmopolitan species."
  • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by KoA (talk). Self-nominated at 17:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Varroa destructor; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Ready for DYK Rublamb (talk) 03:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Review Comments:

• New Enough - updated to GA on Nov. 1 and submitted for DYK on the same day
• Long Enough - character count 7500+
• Extremely well-sourced
• Neutral tone - yes
• Plagiarism - copyvio detector showed 13% - violation unlikely
• Image - freely licensed and used in article
• Hook - I think it could be improved. What do you think of:

ALT1: ... that Varroa destructor, the Varroa mite, is an external parasitic mite that attacks and feeds on honey bees and can cause the death of an entire honey bee colony

• QPQ - not requested
• @KoA:: I've completed my review. Great article and extremely well sourced! See my proposed ALT1 and let me know what you think. Also, are you under 5 DYK or do you need a QPQ ? Rublamb (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
  • @Rublamb:, first time DYK so no QPQ yet. As for the alt text, there are quite a few pests that can kill off entire honey bee colonies. I think the unique factor here is that sources frequently call this the most severe, damaging, serious, etc. threat to honey bees out of all of those, so that's probably the piece I'd stick with over anything else. Maybe something like:

ALT2: ... that Varroa destructor, the Varroa mite, is an external parasitic mite that is considered the most harmful pest to honey bees and can cause a hive to collapse with 2–3 years? KoA (talk) 03:43, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@KoA:: That makes sense; thanks for explaining. Let's keep the original but use harmful instead of damaging; I like that variation you came up with. Rublamb (talk) 03:55, 2 November 2023 (UTC)