Talk:Veganism

Frequently asked questions

To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

Q1: Why does the article distinguish between dietary and ethical vegans? Aren't ethical vegans the only true vegans?

The article makes the distinction because reliable sources make it. See Talk:Veganism/Sources for the dietary veganism distinction for a selection of sources. For example:

Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina (2013):
"There are degrees of veganism. A pure vegetarian or dietary vegan is someone who consumes a vegan diet but doesn't lead a vegan lifestyle. Pure vegetarians may use animal products, support the use of animals in research, wear leather clothing, or have no objection to the exploitation of animals for entertainment. They are mostly motivated by personal health concerns rather than by ethical objections. Some may adopt a more vegan lifestyle as they are exposed to vegan philosophy."^[1]
A. Breeze Harper (2011):
"Practitioners of veganism abstain from animal consumption (dietary and non-dietary). However, the culture of veganism iself is not a monolith and is composed of many different subcultures and philosophies throughout the world, ranging from punk strict vegans for animals rights, to people who are dietary vegans for personal health reasons, to people who practice veganism for religious and spiritual reasons."^[2]
Associated Press (2011):
"Ethical vegans have a moral aversion to harming animals for human consumption ... though the term often is used to describe people who follow the diet, not the larger philosophy"^[3]
Gary Francione (2010):
"Although veganism may represent a matter of diet or lifestyle for some, ethical veganism is a profound moral and political commitment ..."^[4]
Robert Garner (2010):
"I have been a vegetarian all my adult life, and I am currently a dietary vegan, and I do not wear leather."^[5]
Layli Phillips (2010):
"While some vegans, for instance members of the Straight Edge community, demand unswerving commitment to vegan ideals and practices, many people practice some form of partial veganism. For instance, many vegans refrain from eating meat, dairy, and eggs, yet eat honey or wear leather. Other vegans shop vegan and eat vegan at home, but look the other way at a vegetarian restaurant for dishes that use a small amount of butter, cream, or cheese. ... You get the idea: for many people, veganism is a principle, not a law."^[6]
International Vegetarian Union (2000):
"Dietary Vegan: follows a vegan diet, but doesn't necessarily try and exclude non-food uses of animals."^[7]

References

^ Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina, Becoming Vegan: Express Edition, Summertown: Book Publishing Company, 2013, 3.
^ A. Harper Breeze, "Going Beyond the Normative White 'Post-racial' Vegan Epistemology", in Psyche Williams Forson and Carole Counihan (eds.), Taking Food Public: Redefining Foodways in a Changing World, New York: Routledge, 2011, 158.
^ "Vegan Diets Become More Popular, More Mainstream". CBS News. Associated Press. 5 January 2011. Archived from the original on 1 March 2018. Retrieved 1 March 2018. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
^ Gary L. Francione, "The Abolition of Animal Exploitation" in Gary L. Francione and Robert Garner, The Animal Rights Debate: Abolition Or Regulation?, Columbia University Press, 2010, 62.
^ "A Discussion between Francione and Gardner", in Francione and Garner 2010, 257.
^ Layli Phillips, "Veganism and Ecowomanism", in A. Breeze Harper (ed.), Sistah Vegan: Black Female Vegans Speak on Food, Identity, Health, and Society, Brooklyn: Lantern Books, 2010, 11.
^ "Definitions", International Vegetarian Union, archived 29 September 2000.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Veganism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Veganism at the Reference desk.

This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Veganism was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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July 18, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
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January 20, 2013	Good article nominee	Not listed

Current status: Delisted good article

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Mona Chalabi (9 January 2014). "Meat atlas shows Latin America has become a soybean empire". The Guardian.

Archives

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Archives by topic:
Sources for ethical/dietary distinction

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"particularly in diet"

I know this has been discussed a hundred times but... this isn't a dictionary, this is an encyclopedia. It's ok for a dictionary to reflect how people misuse words, but an encyclopedia should reflect what the word actually means. As I dig deeper all I can see is that The Vegan Society never defined veganism as a diet. They always defined it as a philosophy. Countryboy603 (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't originally defined as a philosophy, vegan back then just meant "non-dairy vegetarian". Watson's first definition of veganism in 1945 was very simple, "the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains, and other wholesome non-animal products". Veganism as a philosophy was first defined by Leslie Cross in 1951. It's both a diet and a philosophy. Over time it was turned into a philosophy. Most vegans today consider it a philosophy. Nothing wrong with that they can call it what they want, but we can't deny diet has been an important factor. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, wikipedia is misrepresenting veganism, by suggesting that it is mainly dietary. The usage of "particularly in diet" is completely incorrect.

The correct definition is: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals" ~ The Vegan Society

The wikipedia definition has been incorrect for many years, and they do not appear to allow the page to be corrected. This would have been pointed out to wikipedia many times. After many years of donations, they will not be receiving any more of my money. Begenuine8 (talk) 02:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your definition of veganism is incorrect, and misleading, it has been this way for years, and there is no doubt this has been pointed out to you many times, yet it remains incorrect. Why is this? Veganism is not a diet.

The term veganism was coined by The Vegan Society, their definition is not up for dispute

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." Begenuine8 (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Vegan Society definition of veganism changed many times in the past. Their original definition of veganism in 1945 was "the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains, and other wholesome non-animal products" [1]. The claims about veganism being a philosophy came years later.

The line on the article "Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products—particularly in diet—and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals", is accurate per the sourcing. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here is my suggestion for a lead sentence that reflects this without downplaying the other aspects of the lifestyle: "Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products and the consumption of animal source foods — and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals." If a reliable source is needed, I would suggest this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11016330/

What do you think? --Countryboy603 (talk) 22:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cureus has a poor academic reception and has been accused of predatory publishing. I doubt many would agree the source qualifies as a good WP:RS. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI the modern vegan society definition is already cited on the article in the "definition" section [2] Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI the contemporary definition of veganism, which has not changed in many years, is the definition that this article should commence with. Anything else is a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Veganism is not a diet, vegetarianism is, they are two completely different things. Begenuine8 (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your profile on wikipedia clearly states your bias, as a vegetarian you should remove yourself from any, and all interactions with vegan pages. Wikipedia should be treating them as completely different subjects, since they are.

Your claim of "objectivity" is a mockery to the premise of Wikipedia. Your sole interest is to pretend that vegetarianism is ethical, deliberately contriving similarities with veganism, and grouping the two together at every opportunity. It is a wonder you do not boast about blocking the correction of this page on your profile, there is still some room for more boasting... Begenuine8 (talk) 12:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your account is likely to be blocked if you continue with that because you are far too aggressive and are making personal attacks. It's not worth responding to your false allegations and misinformation. I founded WP:VV. We already have a definition section of veganism on the article and a lead that is well sourced. WP:CON if you want your suggestions to be added to the article, but doubtful because we have already had this discussion many times before. Check the archives. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Begenuine8 has been indef blocked for making personal attacks. If any other users want to continue this discussion make sure to suggest good WP:RS. As noted already in the "Definition" section of the article, we do cite the Vegan Society's modern definition of veganism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina, Becoming Vegan: Express Edition, Summertown: Book Publishing Company, 2013, 3.

[2] A. Harper Breeze, "Going Beyond the Normative White 'Post-racial' Vegan Epistemology", in Psyche Williams Forson and Carole Counihan (eds.), Taking Food Public: Redefining Foodways in a Changing World, New York: Routledge, 2011, 158.

[3] "Vegan Diets Become More Popular, More Mainstream". CBS News. Associated Press. 5 January 2011. Archived from the original on 1 March 2018. Retrieved 1 March 2018. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

[4] Gary L. Francione, "The Abolition of Animal Exploitation" in Gary L. Francione and Robert Garner, The Animal Rights Debate: Abolition Or Regulation?, Columbia University Press, 2010, 62.

[5] "A Discussion between Francione and Gardner", in Francione and Garner 2010, 257.

[6] Layli Phillips, "Veganism and Ecowomanism", in A. Breeze Harper (ed.), Sistah Vegan: Black Female Vegans Speak on Food, Identity, Health, and Society, Brooklyn: Lantern Books, 2010, 11.

[7] "Definitions", International Vegetarian Union, archived 29 September 2000.

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