Talk:Zaynab bint Ali

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zaynab bint Ali article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Religion: Interfaith Low‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is within the scope of Interfaith work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive.

Islam: Muslim history / Shi'a Islam Mid‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Muslim history task force (assessed as Mid-importance).
	This article is supported by the Shi'a Islam task force (assessed as High-importance).

Women's History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women in Religion Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

First revisions

Aladdin, I ended up doing a little research and making some major changes. I removed some material that I thought was dubious -- but not all. I don't have ANY reliable sources on this matter. I don't have the relevant volumes of Ibn Sa'd, Baladhuri, or Tabari. You may object to removing the link to the article re intercession at graves, but the link seemed tenuous, and the statement that ALL Sunni Muslims disapprove of such intercession is wrong. Many Sunni Sufis make pilgrimages to the graves of famous Sufi pir hoping to receive baraka. You may not approve of such practices, but they do exist, and the worshippers are generally conceded to be Sunni. Sorry if this response to your revision is disappointing. I do appreciate your work in removing so much of the Shi'a rhetoric. Zora 02:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora, thank you for responding to my request for review. I have no objections to any of your changes. I came across this article while I was browsing the contributions of certain known, "passionate" Shi'a editors, looking for major POV imbalances. This article fit the bill immensely. If you examine my changes, you will see that the intercession of saints point was not mine, nor was the Sunni view of the same. I merely reworded for grammar. I am fine with removing it, the need to link it is not strong. As for Sufism, yes what you say is true. Academically speaking, I believe it is also true that a significant number of Sunni schools disqualify Sufism as Islam at all. Tangled web, eh?--AladdinSE 03:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i was just going to add that in the introduction to this article it reads that her father is the last sunni caliph this statement is incorrect as Ali is the fourth caliph and not the last- others do follow him!

Binte VS Bint

I tried my best to explain our friend Grenavitar that binte is the right way of saying daughter of in Arabic but he keeps on insisting that it should be bint. Bint has a spelling mistake since it leaves out the -e- from binte. Whoever started writing Islamic article in on wikipedia wrote the article with acb bint acb and acb bin acb. Which are wrong because in Arabic the right way of saying daughter of is Binte and the correct way of saying son of is Ibn. Salman

I am sorry but this is wrong. In Arabic, the word for son is "ibnun" and daughter is "bintun". When one of these words is followed by a Noun, the construction becomes "ibnu _____" or "bintu _____" in the Nominative case. The Accusative case is "Inna ibna ____" and "Inna binta _____", and the genitive case is "fi ibni _____" and "fi binti _____"- Thus, if you would fully vowel it would be Zaynab bintu Ali and this is how it is pronounced in formal Arabic. Most of the time however, there is a pause after the word "bint" which is why the Islamicists transcribe it as "bint".

The construction where you would say in all cases "Zaynab binte Ali" is in the Persian language (and thereby also in Urdu, Turkish, etc), which is a grammatical form unique to those languages. The Arabic language does not support this construction. This is most clear if you look at the word "Abdullah", which means slave of Allah. If the "binte" is Arabic, then you would say "Abde Allah" which is clearly incorrect.

Abdullah doesn't mean "slave of allah" 😐 Fahad15151GO (talk) 16:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced material

The entire story in the introduction about Zaynab's birth and Ali and Husain's reaction is unsourced, and I would wager disagreeable for most Sunnis. Maybe the person who posted it should work on finding sources? If not then it seems logical to tag it as questionable until then.

Tags/Edits

Much of this article is unsourced and seems quoted verbatim from Shia hagiographical texts, which makes it unsuitable for Wikipedia. Thus, it seems reasonable to tag this article

Someone reversed my edits without explanation; the bint/binte issue has been outlined above. It is incorrect Arabic to write the latter. I changed Ali (cousin-brother of Prophet) to just cousin, because this is what the facts bear out. The notion that Ali is a brother to the Prophet is an OPINION of the Shia scholars in a metaphorical sense. There was also a mention about Ali taking his rightful position as Imam which is POV. Finally, several times I swtiched Holy Prophet to Prophet, because the former is stating an opinion and presenting it as fact. The reader of an encyclopedia, and the majority of Muslims, would disagree that the Prophet is holy in terms of being divine. For you to state this in an encyclopedia is POV.

Do not reverse the changes I mentioned above without discussion, otherwise it will be vandalism. 69.113.242.250 12:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spasage, your reverses amount to vandalism. There is an active discussion here on the basis of which some changes were made, and for you to reverse them is vandalism--if we report this to Wikipedia, this article will be locked, which none of us want. 69.113.242.250 21:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added a Sunni View point link also to maintain NPOV

KazakhPol and SmackBot, can you please indicate the things that you disagree with in this article. I tried writing this article from a neutral point of view and if you think that this article is not written from a neutral POV then kindly please help me by indicating the errors, and I will try my best to fix them. Can you please tell me the sentences where you think the neutrality of the article is being damaged? Please don’t ruin the look of this article by placing some tags on it. Thank You Salman 18:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Salman, I haven't been near this article in months and I'm distressed by what I see. For one thing, it's a direct copyvio from [1]. It has no references and is pure Shi'a hagiography. I'll see if I can find an earlier version and restore it. It was tolerable once. Zora 21:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, restored the older version. Please take a look. Zora 21:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zora, can you please takeout sometime out of your busy schedule, to go over these websites.

And while you are at it, after viewing all these website can you please tell me which website copied its material from another website. I am reverting this article and please don’t revert it again before this disputed is finished. Thank you Salman 01:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answers.com copies from WP, and thus copied your copyvio. I don't know which of the Shi'a sites copied from each other, but that doesn't excuse copyvio on WP. I'm reverting back, on copyvio and neutrality grounds. Zora 02:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please Zora stop reverting the article because this dispute is not over yet. You are saying that the material in this article has been copied from another website. Can you please tell me from which website the material has been copied from? And then I will revert the article for you. Please please please, do not revert the page again before we settle our dispute. Just prove that the information has been copied from another and please also tell me how the information of my article showed up on those other websites. Thank You Salman 02:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Salman, the Al-Islam website is long-established website, and the material on Zaynab is credited to M. H. Bilgrami, who apparently wrote a book published in Pakistan and agreed to let his book be featured on this website. Are you claiming that M. H. Bilgram copied from Wikipedia? That's just plain incredible. Yes, some sites, like allexperts and answers.com copy from WP, but Al-Islam obviously didn't. The material you're defending is copyvio, as well as being unsourced, unreliable, and hagiographic. Please stop defending it. Zora 02:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And what about websites like almujtaba.com, nuradeen.com, and al-shia.com, who did they copied from. Fine I agree that some of the things in this article relates to the material written in the book of M. H. Bilgrami. But that doesn’t mean we have to delete the whole article and start from scratch. We can paraphrase some of the sentences that relate to the book of M. H. Bilgrami. Thank You Salman 04:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

The article reads more like a hagiography than a biography. The sourced facts need to be sorted out from the legends and traditions about Zaynab. K e rowyn ^{Leave a note} 00:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's because Salman has copied most of it from Shi'a Muslim websites. I just reverted to a less hagiographic version. Please help me keep it neutral. Salman keeps reverting to the pious version. Zora 06:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I know why shia websites be not believed. Undoubtedly zainab binte ali deserves for hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.54.250.34 (talk) 09:51, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's BIBI?

Please add an explanation when you use some strange acronym. -- 92.229.115.131 (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bibi is Urdu/Hindi and it's womans title, sometimes used for one's wife...etc. In India and Pakistan it is common to attach it to Bibi Zaynab (saw) to ladies of Ahl-e-Bait in that fashion. I agree, it should not be used here in this article as it only used on the Indian subcontinent 95.223.187.171 (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mausoleum

There seem condusion about where her final resting place is. The first part states it is in Damascus, while the other one says there is proof that she died in Egypt. Yet the majority of people consider the mausoleum in Damascus her final resting place. This is sort of vague and contradicting? 95.223.187.171 (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Zaynab bint Ali

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Zaynab bint Ali's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Sharif al-Qarashi":

From Ali ibn Husayn Zayn al-Abidin: Sharif al-Qarashi 2000, p. 58
From Fatimah: Sharif al-Qarashi, Bāqir. The Life of Fatima az-Zahra (sa). Trans. Jāsim al-Rasheed. Qum, Iran: Ansariyan Publications, n.d. Print. Pgs. 37-41
From The Fifteen Whispered Prayers: Sharif al-Qarashi, Baqir. The Life of Imam Zayn al-abidin(a.s.). Ansarian publication. n.d. print. pp. 471–489.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of peacock features and overlinking

I have removed some of the peacock features and massive overlinking. I have also standardised names. There is a discussion of the same features in a related article at Talk:Husayn ibn Ali#Peacock features, Talk:Husayn ibn Ali#Overlinking and Talk:Husayn ibn Ali#Spelling of names.

It also seemed useful to put the events at Karbala in chronological order, so I did that too.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let's write English

Why does the lede use Arabic words for things that have very simple, very adequate English equivalents? Prophet, household. If no one comes up with a persuasive reason, I propose to drop them. Wegesrand (talk) 13:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See it's place in category Arab. I have observed this practice in most of the articles of non-English origin communities where this style of presentation provides native language wordings with its pronunciation for proper referencing and understanding roots. Nannadeem (talk) 17:35, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

The article gives DoB as 3 Oct 626 in the lead and 3 Aug in the text. Her brother claims to have been born on 10 Jan the same year. At least one of these dates looks wrong, but I don't know which. Certes (talk) 16:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources

There are several poor or primary sources in the article, which seems unnecessary with so many academic works published about Zaynab. I'm hoping to add new reliable sources to the article soon and remove/replace the poorly sourced material from it. Albertatiran (talk) 07:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]