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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Thanks to the research and work on the article Star Mississippi 04:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

American Whiskey Trail

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American Whiskey Trail (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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It's not clear that this promotional program is notable - the majority of sources in the article point to the program's own website. The article was created by a single purpose account banned for sockpuppetry who has ties to DISCUS, the organization that created this program.

There was discussion on the article's Talk page back in 2008 suggesting that the article should be deleted, but it was never nominated. Martey (talk) 19:21, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Two-thirds of the citations are still to the site itself, so it's hard to argue that this has significant independent coverage in reliable sources. There is a "Further Reading" list, but there is no indication that any of those publications has a single mention of the subject, so that list seems to have been tacked on in an effort to appear to confer some false notability. Lastly, the article was created by a blocked sockpuppet master who created many sockpuppets, many of them probably unknown, who may have also contributed to this article, and the nominator states that that editor has ties to Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, which created this "trail". For all of those reasons, I am leaning Delete and Redirect to Distilled Spirits Council of the United States and add an independent citation there. Persingo (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC); edited 10:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC) because I have not found evidence of the stricken material.[reply]
    I looked through, it was created in 2005. There are many other users that appear to be doing other edits and are not involved and are in other regions. I still think it is worth it to give it a shot and let pages have their shot at improvement. Yes, the page was started by a socketpuppet user but assume good faith with everyone else per WP:Goodfaith. I also have noticed a lot of pages being deleted or targeted recently. I think WP:ZEALOUS gives good insight into that as well.
    It is editors that make pages better and improve this platform. Lets give this a go. Nolansfood (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also did research to try and find sources before nominating this page. While there are multiple articles that mention the trail, all of the ones I could find are listicles about the better-known distilleries. None of the articles I could find actually focus on the trail itself. It's not clear that these sources clear the bar suggested in WP:ORGIND (e.g. they all reference the same distilleries and statistics about American whiskey growth), and it doesn't look like any other sources exist.
    I don't think WP:ZEALOUS applies here - the article is almost 20 years old and discussions about lack of notability already happened on the article's Talk page. I also don't understand your reference to "a lot of pages being deleted or targeted recently" and how it relates to this AfD. Martey (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The article has been improved and now has at least three full-article citations from reliable sources from various years that are independent of the subject. Persingo (talk) 10:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Zavatto, Amy. "The Jewel of the Julep: Following the American Whiskey Trail". Frommer's. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "So when the opportunity arose to travel to President George Washington's Mount Vernon estate, the starting point of the American Whiskey Trail (www.americanwhiskeytrail.com) ... The linking together of seven distilleries and half a dozen historical sites is in large part the brainchild of the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States (DISCUS) ... It was a good note to end on, as my mind was already down river heading toward the second stop of the Whiskey Trail--Kentucky. ... My stops along this stretch of the American Whiskey Trail included four of Kentucky's finest: Jim Beam, Maker's Mark, Wild Turkey, and Woodford Reserve -- distilleries as unique to one another as the closely guarded yeast strains they use in their whiskey-making processes."

    2. Anderson, Mary Ann (2007-06-03). "Tipple-Toe Along The American Whiskey Trail". The Tampa Tribune. McClatchy-Tribune News Service. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09 – via Newspapers.com.

      The article notes: "Aficionados and novices alike can avail themselves of this experience by visiting any or all the seven distilleries that are part of the American Whiskey Trail. Sponsored by the Distilled Spirits Council of the U.S., or DISCUS, the trail is spread over a five-state area from New York to Tennessee by way of Pennsylvania, Virginia and Kentucky. I recently traversed about 1,000 miles, often on twisting, narrow rural roads and byways, to hit the distilleries in a four-day span before taking in Mount Vernon, Va. ... The distilleries open to the public are in Kentucky (Jim Beam in Clermont; Maker's Mark in Loretto; Wild Turkey in Lawrenceburg; and Woodford Reserve in Versailles) and Tennessee (George Dickel in Tullahoma and Jack Daniel's in Lynchburg). ... Trying to sum up the allure of the American Whiskey Trail in a sentence is difficult. I ran into any number of nondrinkers who were visiting just out of curiosity about the culture of whiskey-making - a process often carried out in "dry" counties where liquor cannot be sold."

    3. Dowd, William M. (2011). "An Overview of the Spirits World". In Dowd, William M. (ed.). Barrels and Drams: The History of Whisk(e)y in Jiggers and Shots. New York: Sterling Epicure. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-1-4027-7865-0. Retrieved 2024-02-09 – via Internet Archive.

      The book notes: "Nearly four thousand miles away in the New World, there is another historic trail-the American Whiskey Trail, which includes seven historic sites and six operating whiskey distilleries spread over a five-state arc between New York and Tennessee by way of Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Kentucky. If that seems a slightly awkward physical construct, perhaps it is. But it shows the erratic progression of whiskey-making throughout America history, the watershed moment of which occurred before George Smith's rise to prominence. Traveling from the north, the American Whiskey Trail begins at historic Fraunces Tavern Museum in Manhattan. It was the site of General George Washington's farewell address to his troops in 1783 and operates as a commercial business to this day. The trail ends at the recently rebuilt site of the George Washington Distillery Museum on the grounds of private citizen Washington's home and farm at Mount Vernon, Virginia. There they refer to that site as the gateway to the trail. Geographic chauvinism obviously is dictated by where you live. In between, visitors take in a string of historic taverns, whiskey museums, and distillery centers. One of them is in the West Overton Museums complex in Scottdale, Pennsylvania, a former distillery center and part of what is billed as the only pre-Civil War village in Pennsylvania still intact. Its heritage links the Old World and the New."

    4. Luntz, Perry (2008). Whiskey & Spirits For Dummies. Hoboken, New Jersey: Wiley. p. 125. ISBN 978-0-470-11769-9. Retrieved 2024-02-09 – via Internet Archive.

      The book notes: "The American Whiskey Trail, a list of whiskey-related sites collected by the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, is a visible history of America's romance with distilled spirits. Some of the sites primarily associated with Bourbon and Tennessee whiskeys are listed in Chapter 6. The following list shows the locations associated primarily with American blended whiskey. Put the two together and you have one wonderful trip."

      The book lists Gadsby's Tavern Museum, George Washington's Distillery, Oliver Miller Homestead, Oscar Getz Museum of Whisky, West Overton Museums, and Woodsville Plantation.

    5. Schmid, Albert W. A. (2023). Bourbon 101. Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 978-0-8131-9716-6. Retrieved 2024-02-09 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "Once you have traveled the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, if you want to continue your “studies" on bourbon and American whiskey, you might consider a journey on the American Whiskey Trail. You can begin the trail wherever you like, but note that the George Washington Distillery in Mount Vernon, Virginia, is considered the “gateway” to the trail. There is some overlap between the Kentucky Bourbon Trail and the American Whiskey Trail, so you can decide to either revisit some locations or move on to those that you have not seen yet. Allegany Museum—Cumberland, Maryland. Angel's Envy—Louisville, Kentucky. Barton 1792 Distillery—Bardstown, Kentucky. Bradford House Museum—Washington, Pennsylvania. Buffalo Trace—Frankfort, Kentucky."

    6. Schlimm, John (2018). Moonshine: A Celebration of America's Original Rebel Spirit. New York: Citadel Press. ISBN 978-0-8065-3919-5. Retrieved 2024-02-09 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "In 2004, the Distilled Spirits Council launched the American Whiskey Trail tourism initiative to celebrate the cultural heritage and history of spirits, such as moonshine, in America. The American Whiskey Trail includes museums, such as the Allegheny Museum in Cumberland, Maryland; Oscar Getz Museum of Whiskey History in Bardstown, Kentucky; and Whiskey Rebellion sites such as Oliver Miller Homestead in South Park, Pennsylvania, and Woodville Plantation, the John and Presley Neville House in Bridgeville, Pennsylvania. Distilleries are also part of the American Whiskey Trail. These include icons like Jack Daniel's in Lynchburg, Tennessee; Jim Beam in Clermont, Kentucky; Maker's Mark in Loretto, Kentucky; and Wild Turkey in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. Also included are George Washington's Distillery at Historic Mount Vernon in Alexandria, Virginia; George Dickel in Tullahoma, Tennessee; Stitzel-Weller Distillery in Louisville, Kentucky; and Woodford Reserve in Versailles, Kentucky."

    7. Pitock, Todd (2014-04-17). "On the Whiskey Trail: A congenial tour of the birthplaces of an American native spirit". The Saturday Evening Post. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "To tell the story, the Distilled Spirits Council mapped a route it calls the American Whiskey Trail that runs in an arc from Washington, D.C., through Pennsylvania and Kentucky into Tennessee, and Dominic and I and a few other passionate whiskey-philes set out to follow it. The trail officially starts in Mount Vernon, Virginia, the home of America’s first president. ... the master distiller at George Dickel Whisky in Tullahoma, Tennessee, where we pick up the trail."

    8. Stecher, Nicolas (2017-11-20). "Five of the best distilleries on the American Whiskey Trail". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "The American Whiskey Trail is pinging the radar of whiskey-loving tourists. ... Despite being distilled in the Appalachian foothills for centuries, the idea of a formal “trail” is a relatively new concept. The “American Whiskey Trail” only dates back to 2004, when the Distilled Spirits Council recognised the growing interest and realised there was a need for a more organised visitor experience. The trail is not a linear route, rather it snakes around points of interest, such as historic bars, museums, coopers, and still-makers. The distilleries remain the real focus, however. These five are the most interesting distilleries I visited on the trail, though I should also give a mention to cooperages such as Brown-Forman and still-maker Vendome Copper & Brass, both in Louisville."

    9. Greenfield, Heather (2004-09-30). "Washington's distillery will be gateway for new American Whiskey Trail". Sentinel Tribune. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "The chief historian at Mount Vernon, the first president's Potomac-side mansion, disclosed plans Tuesday for the George Washington Distillery Museum, which will be become the gateway for a new American Whiskey Trail. The trail is meant to be enjoyed much like the spirit: slowly, as it will feature museums and historic sites in five states. ... The trail goes from the Fraunces Tavern Museum in New York City, where Washington bade farewell to his troops in 1783, through several museums and plantations in Pennsylvania. It includes distilleries in Virginia, Tennessee and Kentucky. ... Distillers and historians toasted Tuesday's opening of the trail with a historic rye whiskey, the first made on the grounds of Mount Vernon since Washington's distillery closed in 1797. "

    10. Brinkley, C. Mark (2007-05-07). "A spirited adventure - 7 great stops on the American Whiskey Trail". Army Times. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "This is where our education on the drink that nursed a newborn nation begins, in the heart of the Bluegrass State, home to five stops on the American Whiskey Trail. Sponsored by the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, the trail consists of more than a dozen public distillery tours, museums and cultural sites across five states. Most are within easy striking distance for troops stationed on the East Coast. Some of the more popular stops on the trail, begun in 2004 to showcase the long-standing distilling tradition in the U.S., draw more than 50,000 visitors each year. ... There is no real batting order for the American Whiskey Trail. Like baseball fans hoping to visit every major league city or hikers who set out to conquer the national parks, whiskey aficionados can start wherever they see fit."

    11. Medley, Mark (2011-08-20). "That's the spirit: On the Southern U.S. Whiskey Trail". National Post. Archived from the original on 2024-02-09. Retrieved 2024-02-09.

      The article notes: "The industry doesn't just rely on consumption, but tourism, something I recently witnessed first-hand while following the "American Whiskey Trail" on a press trip organized by the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States. Admirers of Tennessee whisky or Kentucky bourbon can easily spend a week touring grand ol' distilleries like those of Jack Daniel's, Maker's Mark and Jim Beam.If the Whiskey Trail has a Disney World, it's Jack Daniel's sprawling distillery in Lynchburg, Tenn., which welcomes more than 250,000 tourists each year ... When you get past its quaint facade, the sheer scale of the 1,800-acre distillery becomes apparent; behind the old-timey buildings, folksy tour guides and magic cave spring (Whiskey Trail pilgrims soon learn that each distillery claims water superiority over the competition) ..."

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the American Whiskey Trail to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 11:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's enough here to write an article. Every source says the same thing: the trail exists, it's an industry-created promotional tool to drive tourism, and it starts at the George Washington estate. I don't think that coverage is significant enough to allow us to write an article. Also, as I noted in my !vote, the second source you've provided reads as very promotional and I question its independence. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence that the article by the McClatchy-Tribune News Service's Mary Ann Anderson is a non-independent source. She is an established journalist who provided her opinion about the American Whiskey Trail. That her opinion is positive does not exclude her from being an independent reliable source.

There is enough information in the sources I found to support a standalone article that discusses each stop of the American Whiskey Trail. A merge to Distilled Spirits Council of the United States would lead to the loss of sourced content or be undue weight if everything is merged. Cunard (talk) 10:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough point regarding Anderson, but I was struck by how promotional the tone of that article was when I first read it. In any event, I do not believe that a standalone article that discusses each stop of the American Whiskey Trail would be encyclopedic. Per WP:N, an article needs to both meet GNG and WP:NOT. In this case, Wikipedia is not a travel guide, particularly where many of the sources you've cited are 5+ years old and some of the distilleries and other locations on the tour have very likely changed since those reviews were written. An article noting that the trail exists and describing each stop on the trail would quickly go out of date and would not be useful to readers. I think a redirect to DISCUS, perhaps merging a list of the current locations of the trial and citing to more recent reviews, would be appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anderson 2007 discusses the geography, historical background, and the writer's perspective of each stop on the American Whiskey Trail. Stecher 2017 discusses the architecture, historical background, and the writer's perspective of five stops on the American Whiskey Trail. The geography, architecture, historical background, and writer's perspective will not is encyclopedic content that does not violate WP:NOTTRAVELGUIDE. Having this information enhances the reader's understanding of the subject. Cunard (talk) 22:44, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that those sources are reliable and contain significant coverage of the individual distilleries. However, as you noted, their descriptions are about the stops on the Trail, not the Trail itself, which is just a list of distilleries that was created as a promotional travel guide by an industry group. If anything, those reviews should be included in the articles on the relevant distilleries. I don't see the value of collecting reviews of disparate distilleries into one article just because those distilleries happen to be part of the same travel guide. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The topic of stops on the American Whiskey Trail meets Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists. I consider it encyclopedic to present an overview of each of the stops on the trail—their historical background, geography, and architecture—in a single annotated Wikipedia list article just like several independent reliable sources have done. Cunard (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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