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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Esymi. MBisanz talk 22:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aris Esymis F.C.

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Aris Esymis F.C. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Contested PROD. Concern was "A Greek football club with its only claim of participation a 4-year Delta Ethniki spell in the 80's [1]. No participation in the Greek Football Cup and no media coverage in reliable sources besides routine match reports. Fails WP:GNG.", and it's still valid. PROD contested by Sporty21 (talk · contribs) without providing a reason. – Kosm1fent 04:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. – Kosm1fent 04:46, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Q1. Has the club played in a national cup (listed in the Blue Column)? NO
Q2. Has the club played in a notable league (listed in the Yellow Column)? NO
Q3. Has the club played in a league at the next highest level (listed in the Grey Column)? YES
Q4. Is there substantial identifiable media coverage (excluding match reports) about the club in reliable independent sources? NO
Q5. Has the club played in the past in a competition of comparable status to one listed in the Blue or Yellow Columns? NO
The club therefore fails the test and should be deleted. League Octopus (League Octopus 09:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • Delete - per League Octopus: non-notable club. --Mentoz86 (talk) 12:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/redirect to Esymi. I'm not acquainted with coverage of lower-league football in Greece, and don't read the language, but this club spent four years in the Greek fourth tier within the last 20 years. One level above that, a club's players would be presumed notable, let alone the club itself. However, there's nothing in the article to confirm its meeting WP:CORP or WP:GNG. It's a likely search term, and merging/redirecting to the article about the place it played would seem appropriate.

    As to reference to "WP:NTEST" above, I'm a little surprised that a WP:N prefix is being used on a shortcut to a userspace essay. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I understood the Greek Cup had only been restricted to the top three divisions since 1971? But the idea that notability attaches to appearing in a national cup is unconvincing. The convention sort-of-works for English football, not because appearing in a cup atracts enough coverage for presumed notability (it doesn't, generally), but because clubs have to be playing at a certain level to qualify for entry to national cups, and at that level they can be loosely considered to get enough "significant" coverage to pass GNG. That's not necessarily the case elsewhere: as has been pointed out many times, even the tiniest registered club can enter the French Cup, and coverage of lower-league football varies massively from country to country.

    Which is why I said I wasn't well enough acquainted with how much coverage there is, or has been in the past, of lower-league football in Greece to comment specifically. It just strikes me as very odd that there appears to be such a sharp line between third and fourth tiers: that a player with appearances in the third tier would have a presumption of notability, i.e. would be likely to have attracted enough non-trivial independent reliable sources to pass WP:GNG, yet it's not likely that a club playing for several seasons just one level lower would attract a comparable standard of coverage. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Actually, I've said many times in the past that players with only third level appearances in Greece should not be considered notable. Non-routine coverage on (most) Delta Ethniki clubs reeks as much as non-routine coverage on Football League 2 or sometimes even Football League players; so, to my view, there is no sharp line at all. ;) IMO, using participation in a national cup for clubs is as bad a notability standard as participation in a fully pro league for players; none of which makes a statement for the quantity and quality of coverage in reliable sources. Regards. – Kosm1fent 15:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
With limited entry in the Greek Cup it will always be difficult for clubs competing in lower-league football to prove notability. If we look at the Greek Cup in Greek Wikipedia say from 1961/62 to 1970/71 there are certainly a lot more clubs listed than we have in RSSSF and English Wikipedia. In the interest of fairness (particularly as most of us cannot read Greek) it would be most helpful if the missing details can be added to English Wikipedia. It would be particularly helpful if for say a couple of years in the 1960s we "drill down further" and include all the clubs that competed in the Greek Cup - there must be an annual or two which contains this sort of stats. There is always a nagging doubt that clubs like Aris Esymis may have competed in the Greek Cup in the past. However any assessment we make is made in good faith using available information. League Octopus (League Octopus 18:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Some information is appearing on blogs such as filahtlos.blogspot.co.uk but reliability may be questioned. League Octopus (League Octopus 18:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Until 1971, amateur clubs could participate indeed – afterwards they could only participate in the Amateur Cup. However, it's not clear by what criteria they were chosen and from what I can see, they were drawn to play locally against each other in some kind of "qualification rounds" before the professional clubs came in. The only levels that always brought clubs to the cup were the first and second ones (the latter being enormous before the formation of the third level). In any case, Aris Esymis only participated in the Delta Ethniki during the 80's, a time when amateur clubs were not allowed to enter the Greek Cup. And for the record, there shouldn't be a "nagging doubt" about a couple appearances in a cup competition if coverage is lacking. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 19:33, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment both English Wikipedia and the RSSSF only cover quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals from 1931-32 to 1977-78. From 1978-79 coverage improves on English Wikipedia. Over a period of 36 seasons we only get 8 teams a season in the Greek Cup! Where are some of the other results? - there must be loads and loads of examples of lower division clubs playing higher ranked clubs from the top divisions. I know it is not always easy to access historical data but where such data is available (such as results in the 1960s in Greek Wikipedia) we should be using it. Because of the current dearth of historical information on the Greek Cup any AfD analysis that we undertake may be flawed. League Octopus (League Octopus 08:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Before 1978 only the final rounds are documented because there is no data about fixtures which were largely regional – the el.wiki articles are allegedly sourced by a book which I'm trying to acquire, and even that doesn't go beyond the round of 32, where big clubs came in. I said before that the local Football Club Associations picked a number of amateur clubs of their juristiction and they were set to play against clubs from neighbouring FCA's in qualification grounds before the pro clubs came in – there is no indication that these lowly fixtures ever gathered any attention even in local media (which at the time few existed). Don't confuse the Greek Cup with the English equivalent; in Greece it was never considered a "big deal" and the leagues were always the ones received the most coverage. And wrong, any AfD analysis we make will not be flawed, as ultimately all articles should pass GNG and that's easier to assess as it's not limited to season or competition – on the other hand, you need to show how a couple of cup participations affect coverage. ;) – Kosm1fent 08:54, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After further inspection, it appears I was wrong; the el.wiki articles are entirely unsourced regarding to pre-quarterfinal rounds and the book I mentioned only conveys information on the 1962 final. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 09:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced on this one as I have no opportunity to help sort out the "wheat from the chaff". The "wheat" being lots of cup results of "small clubs" playing "big clubs" that would be of interest to us. In Finland for example I am able to access cup results up to around 1975 online from their National Sports Museum and I have the yearbooks for the next 30 years. In England I have in the past been along to the Football Association offices and obtained photocopies of the material I needed. There must be other options that an Editor in Greece could follow to help establish an improved information base on the Greek Cup - results coverage in old newspapers being one. League Octopus (League Octopus 09:50, 12 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
With respect, I'm not sure where this is taking us. It goes without saying that improving Greek Cup pages on en:wp would be a good thing. But finding the name of Aris Esymis in a list of Greek Cup results won't magically make them likely to have received enough significant coverage to pass WP:GNG. There's no guideline, consensus or precedent to suggest that playing in national cup competition confers notability regardless of entry criteria or media coverage of that cup in that nation. Nearly 7,500 clubs enter the Coupe de France: most of them play in front of the proverbial three men and a dog in the local park. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My final word is that as things stand at present and the criteria we use there is in my view little hope of Aris Esymis and other similar clubs (that have played no higher than Delta Ethniki) of having an article. However, if it can be demonstrated that before 1971 a club has played in the Greek Cup (perhaps on a regular basis) it may be worth "going that extra mile" in an attempt to produce an article that passes WP:GNG. Greece only has 143 club articles and this debate highlights some of the current deficiences. It is very hard to even determine the Greek name for Aris Esymis and a starting point for a "more user friendly approach" would be to include the Greek names of all the clubs that are highlighted in the List of football clubs in Greece. How can we use Google sources and news tools properly if we cannot even establish the Greek name of the club? League Octopus (League Octopus 20:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC))[reply]
I believe we should wreck the idea that playing in a national cup should confer any kind of notability, and replace that idea with League Octopus's essay that playing in a notable league should give some indication of notability. In the case of the Greek league system, I feel that it's a little wrong that only the 58 top clubs should have an article, compared to other European nations. But as long as we don't have editors that want to improve those articles, they will remain short stubs with no indication of notability. I still think this should be deleted, as it fails WP:GNG, but without prejudice for recreation if someone want to improve it. --Mentoz86 (talk) 08:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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