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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sandstein 09:05, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery

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Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Does not meet WP:NCORP notability guidelines. Sources are mostly local newspapers and blogs. Somehow the New York Times and Washington post are included as sources, yet the linked articles have no mention of the winery. Rusf10 (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wine-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, are local news papers not usable? I thought there was something about how they were in some cases for local places. Id consider a winery as much a geographical thing as a corporation depending. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:30, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No local newspapers aren't good enough, WP:AUD applies. If allowed them to establish notability, every mom and pop business would have a wikipedia article.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't a blanket ban on local newspapers like your making it sound. WP:AUD says there needs to be at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source to back them up, but they are still acceptable when their is at least one of those. In this case, the article has at least three regional and statewide sources to put the local sources over the threshold of being acceptable. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 06:04, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Some routine local coverage of winery events (tastings, dinners, etc.); listings in guidebooks but every winery gets a listing. Other articles just mention winery in passing and some of the cited articles don't mention the winery at all. Glendoremus (talk) 23:57, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Toms, Charlie (2013-09-07). "Hawk Haven Vineyards Review". American Winery Guide. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    2. Jackson, Bart (2011). Garden State Wineries Guide: The Tasteful Traveler's Handbook to the Wineries and Vineyards of New Jersey. San Francisco: Wine Appreciation Guild. pp. 60–61. ISBN 978-1-934259-57-3. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    3. Howard-Fusco, John (2017). Culinary History of Cape May, A: Salt Oysters, Beach Plums & Cabernet Franc. Charleston, South Carolina: Arcadia Publishing. p. 122. ISBN 978-1-62619-589-9. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    4. D'Addono, Beth (2015-07-09). "Red, White & Jersey: Sure, it's the Garden State. But who harbored such grape expectations?". Philadelphia Daily News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22 – via Newspapers.com.
    Sources with quotes
    1. Toms, Charlie (2013-09-07). "Hawk Haven Vineyards Review". American Winery Guide. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The article notes:

      The Wuerker family has farmed in Rio Grande, New Jersey since 1940. Originally they were lima bean and dairy farmers, but in 1997 they planted Cabernet Sauvignon grapes. Twelve years later Todd and Kenna Wuerker opened Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery. The name refers to the large number of hawks that migrate to the farm every year, and many of their wines have hawk-related names. The winery is located near the shore resort communities of Wildwood and Cape May, and is in the Outer Coastal Plain Viticultural Area, which consists of more than 25 Southern New Jersey wineries. Hawk Haven has 120 acres of land, 9 acres of which is cultivated with grapes grown by the Wuerkers and their viticulturalist Lalo Serra. The vineyard is a member of the Garden State Wine Growers Association, and produces around 4,200 cases of wine per year.

      The winery is easy to find – just look for grape vines, an American flag, and a sign with two hawks on it. Across the street from the entrance are more of Hawk Haven’s grapevines, and a railroad track which is part of the Cape May Seashore Lines. A tourist train occasionally runs on the track, and the train will stop upon request at the vineyard. Hawk Haven has a patio with chairs, tables, and umbrellas, and customers are invited to have picnics and bring pets. The winery is in a large concrete and stone building with an arched entrance. The tasting room consists of a pine-clad counter with wooden stools, behind which is a wine rack. To the side of the tasting room is a room filled with oak barrels and awards that Hawk Haven has won.

      Hawk Haven produces wine from 17 different grapes – Albarino, Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chambourcin, Chardonnay, Gewurztraminer, Merlot, Petit Verdot, Pinot Gris, Riesling, Sangiovese, Sauvignon Blanc, Syrah, Tempranillo, Vidal Blanc, Viognier, and Zinfandel. The winery was chosen to be a test site for a Rutgers University study, and in the spring of 2013, they planted Lagrein and Teroldego grapes, two very rare red grapes from Trentino-South Tyrol region of Italy. Researchers are studying whether grapes from this region of Italy can be successfully grown in New Jersey. If the project is successful, Hawk Haven plans to make blended wines from Lagrein and Teroldego.

    2. Jackson, Bart (2011). Garden State Wineries Guide: The Tasteful Traveler's Handbook to the Wineries and Vineyards of New Jersey. San Francisco: Wine Appreciation Guild. pp. 60–61. ISBN 978-1-934259-57-3. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The book notes:

      The doors have just flung wide on Memorial Day 2011, and the obviously new, warmly paneled tasting room may set your palate to accept first-season efforts. Then comes the surprise. The wrist-thick vines out back have basked under the nearby ocean's breezes since their first planting in 1997. Back in the tasting room, the complexity of 2007 Merlot and the rich, full finish of the Cabernet Sauvignon bear testimony to this maturity.

      Before coming into their own, Hawk Haven founders Todd Wuerker and wife Kenna produced the twelve varieties on their nine-acre vineyard for five other South Jersey wineries. Following in the tradition of his grandfather and father, who owned and tilled this land since 1940, Todd is a careful, precise farmer. When he set aside the vineyard from the 110 acres of pumpkins and lima beans, he designed a strategy for long term development. His restricted space planting brings less fruit on each vine, less fruit per acre—and more quality.

      It is this blend of generational farm wisdom, and a refreshing, energetic approach that have developed their 2007 American Kestrel White. This lightly oaked Chardonnay subtly enhances rather than overwhelms seafood. Likewise, Hawk Haven's 2008 Riesling holds a surprisingly full body without being cloyingly sweet.

      Here is your chance to walk, picnic, and explore. Like the hawks overhead, visitors may roam the vineyard's one-hundred acres, find one of the tree-hemmed lakes, and perhaps settle in with a 2008 Pinot Grigio for lunch. My personal favorite: a sip on the old-fashioned rope swing out front.

      The book further notes:

      Vineyard production: Nine-plus acres containing twelve varieties, such as Syrah, Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Merlot, Riesling and the black Spanish Tempranillo. These plus twenty percent of grapes bought locally produce two-thousand cases annually.

      Facility: The ample Wine Room with long tasting bar hold fifty joyful oenophiles easily. The barrel room offers intimate parties the right atmosphere for dinner and elegant evenings. Outside, Hawk Haven invites guests to wander the over ten-acres with lakes and natural picnic areas, and also offers a twenty-five-person tent to serve as party central.

    3. Howard-Fusco, John (2017). Culinary History of Cape May, A: Salt Oysters, Beach Plums & Cabernet Franc. Charleston, South Carolina: Arcadia Publishing. p. 122. ISBN 978-1-62619-589-9. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The book notes:

      Once a dairy farm that eventually grew lima beans, Hawk Haven shifted course and became a winery in 1997. That was the year brothers Todd and Ken Wuerker planted their first Cabernet Sauvignon vines. The farm where Hawk Haven is located has been part of the Wuerker family since Felix Wuerker came to Cape May from Germany in 1940. The brothers are the third generation to be in charge of the farm, and they have quickly made their winery a destination for wine lovers touring the Cape.

      The tasting room opened in 2009, and ever since, Todd and his wife, Kenna, have created a fun and relaxed environment throughout their one-hundred-acre farm. Hawk Haven currently grows as many as sixteen different varieties of grapes over fourteen acres, many of which have become typical to the Outer Coastal Plain: Cabernet Franc, Chardonnay, Viognier and Chambourcin. But Todd Wuerker has also grown some interesting choices as well, such as Gewurztraminer and Albariño. They even produced a port with Moscato grapes.

    4. D'Addono, Beth (2015-07-09). "Red, White & Jersey: Sure, it's the Garden State. But who harbored such grape expectations?". Philadelphia Daily News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22 – via Newspapers.com.

      The above link is the third page of the article. ThisInternet Archive is the first page and thisInternet Archive is the second page. The article notes:

      Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery

      This farm-turned-winery is a labor of love in the hands of Todd Wuerker, the third generation in his family to work this soil, and his wife and partner, Kenna Sitarski. Opened for tastings since 2009, the winery produces award-winning vintages, including a cellared 2008 Quill — a classic Bordeaux with plenty of cranberry herbal notes that earned a gold medal in the World Wine Championship.

      Stop by for a sampling or reserve a more in-depth tour through every step of the winemaking process, from the vineyard to the vast steel tanks and French oak barrels. This $25 experience includes a selection of cheese and a glass to take home.

      There's live music from 2 to 5 p.m. every Saturday through October, with local singer-songwriters and wine sipping, if you need a break from the beach.

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 00:51, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: None of these sources pass test to qualify as significant coverage--
1) American Winery Guide is a blog sourced by volunteer correspondents. There is no editorial control that I can see.
2) Garden State Wineries Guide is essentially a directory listing of all wineries in New Jersey. Reviews are clearly promotional.
3) Culinary History of Cape May covers the winery in passing, two short paragraphs among 7 pages on wineries in the region
4) Red, White & Jersey mentions Hawk Haven in passing; again one of several wineries mentioned in passing, not in depth, promotional.
Based on these sources, winery is clearly not notable. Glendoremus (talk) 05:06, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have stricken the American Winery Guide source as its reliability is dubious. The 2011 book titled Garden State Wineries Guide provides a substantial review of the winery. It is not merely a directory listing. That the reviewer gave a positive review of the winery does not make the review unusable for establishing notability.

    Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline says:

    If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.

    • "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.
    Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery is not the "main topic of the source material" for some of these sources, but that is not required by the guideline. All of these sources "addres[s] the topic [of Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery] directly and in detail" so provide "significant coverage" of the subject.

    Here are some more sources about the subject:

    1. Vigna, Paul (2017-05-25). "Wine tour 2017: Four wineries in one Cape May, N.J., day trip". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    2. Vigna, Paul (2019-06-30). "Winery tour 2019: Visit these six in one Cape May weekend trip". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    3. Davies, Danielle (2018-08-22). "Five Things to Do at Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery This Weekend". The Press of Atlantic City. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.
    Sources with quotes
    1. Vigna, Paul (2017-05-25). "Wine tour 2017: Four wineries in one Cape May, N.J., day trip". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The article notes:

      You'll drive around 10 minutes to the final stop at Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery, 600 South Railroad Avenue, in Rio Grande.

      Hawk Haven is open seven days a week. It switches to its summer hours this weekend, which is 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. Saturdays and Sundays and 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. Mondays through Fridays.

      Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery is located in the Outer Coastal Plain AVA and uses the biggest variety of grapes of the four wineries, all growing on 14 acres. It produces wine from (in alphabetical order): Albarino, Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chambourcin, Chardonnay, Gewurztraminer, Merlot, Petit Verdot, Pinot Gris, Riesling, Sangiovese, Sauvignon Blanc, Syrah, Tempranillo, Vidal Blanc, Viognier and Zinfandel grapes.

      Co-owner and winemaker Todd Wuerker pours wines for a tasting in Hawk Haven's barrel room, which the winery offers daily, year-round. Hawk Haven wines have won numerous awards for many of its different varieties. The most notable awarded to the Cabernet Franc was the Governor's Cup as well as a gold medal at the 2016 N.J. Wine Competition. Todd and his wife, Kenna, began their work to open the winery in August of 2006 and established Hawk Haven Vineyard LLC by May 2008, opening the tasting room just one year later. Their first vintage was in 2007 and consisted of the American Kestrel White (an unoaked Chardonnay), red table wine, Merlot, and Cabernet Sauvignon.

    2. Vigna, Paul (2019-06-30). "Winery tour 2019: Visit these six in one Cape May weekend trip". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The article notes:

      Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery

      Hawk Haven’s story is like many others up and down the East Coast, a farm that’s been rooted into a family for decades and eventually turned into a winery. Located in the Rio Grande section of Cape May, it was purchased by Johan Felix Wuerker after he traveled from Germany to Cape May in 1940. Fast-forward to 1997 when Todd Wuerker and older brother Ken planted the first grapevines, Cabernet Sauvignon.

      Todd and his wife, Kenna, got their plan under way to open a winery in August 2006. Hawk Haven Vineyard LLC was established in May 2008, and the tasting room opened a year later. Their first vintage was in 2007 and consisted of the American Kestrel White (an unoaked Chardonnay), Red Table Wine, Merlot, and Cabernet Sauvignon. Today they have 14 acres of vines and growing 16 varieties of grapes. All of the grapes are harvested, pressed, fermented, aged, blended, and bottled on site. Here’s a link to more on the Hawk Haven story.

      [quotes from the co-owner]

      ...

      Its wines quickly are maturing into some of New Jersey’s best, as mentioned above with the references to the high numbers its Syrah and Albarino scored in several multi-state tastings. You can find the usual array of dry and sweet wines, highlighted by its Signature Series. Bottles range from the upper teens into the 20s, with a few of its top-level wines hitting price points near $40.

      The winery enhanced its profile in 2018 by joining the The Winemakers Co-Op, which features several of the state’s elite producers.

    3. Davies, Danielle (2018-08-22). "Five Things to Do at Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery This Weekend". The Press of Atlantic City. Archived from the original on 2020-03-22. Retrieved 2020-03-22.

      The article notes:

      ... there are a bevy of things to do at Hawk Haven Vineyard & Winery in Rio Grande this weekend, in addition to simply sipping.

      1 Head there for the wine, obvs. Get to Hawk Haven any weekday at 1 p.m. for a vineyard and winery tour complete with a selection of gourmet cheeses, wine tastings, and a souvenir glass for just $25 per person. Sample some wines, get a tour of the beautiful grounds of Hawk Haven and get a first-hand wine education.

      ...

      4 A.J. Meerwald. It turns out that vineyards aren’t just for landlubbers. Head out to sea on the A.J. Meerwald on Saturday for a 2.5-hour cruise with winemaker Todd Wuerker — as well as limited-edition Signature Series and cellared Hawk Haven wines — and passed hors d’oeuvres from Chef Lucas Manteca. Seating is limited and tickets are $109 per person.

    That The Patriot-News, a newspaper that serves Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, covered a Cape May County, New Jersey, winery strongly establishes notability.

    Cunard (talk) 08:15, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 16:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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