Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongol invasion of Bulgaria and Serbia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. General disagreement on whether this is a POV fork of something, or not. One suggestion here is that renaming the article might solve some of the problems, but no consensus on that either.

My suggestion is that people continue to work on this, using the article talk page as a discussion forum. If some time goes by and people feel the issues raised here have not been addressed, it can always be brought back here for another look. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:17, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mongol invasion of Bulgaria and Serbia

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Totally unsourced POV fork that created to justify claims about Bulgarian wars. See List of wars involving Bulgaria} I asked weeks ago for sourcing to occur and there has been nothing (not even an expansion to the article beyond about a one line stub). Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - What is this a fork of? I see the article was renamed in 2015 from "Mongol invasion of Bulgaria", and I could see the page being renamed again, but I don't see how it is a fork. That said, I agree the article might not be suitable for inclusion in wikipedia (see below). Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:47, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Assumption on my part, It was created very soon after I threatened (on the list of wars involving Bulgaria article) to remove any wars not actually linked to an article about that war. Then those wars were linked to this article, and nothing more was done. Thus this seems to exist solely to justify content in another article.Slatersteven (talk) 08:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete - Looking this up, it seems that in the spring of 1242, Mongol forces moved from the Hungarian plain eastwards, possibly in retreat, after the invasion of Hungary (see Battle of Mohi). They were in pursuit of Bela IV who had fled to Ragusa/Dalmatia. during their pursuit, they raided Bulgaria and Kaliman I was induced to pay tribute and accept suzerainty. (Madgearu, Alexandru. The Asanids: The Political and Military History of the Second Bulgarian Empire (1185-1280). Brill, 2016. p228; Vásáry, István. Cumans and Tatars: Oriental Military in the Pre-Ottoman Balkans, 1185–1365. Cambridge University Press, 2005. p70) Kiliman was Bela IV's nephew, for what it is worth. I think the basic information could go into the aftermath section of the Battle of Mohi page. The events are already mentioned at Kaliman I of Bulgaria. Madgearu's account suggests some pitched battles or full sieges based partly on archaeological evidence, but notes there is some confusion whether some of these events occurred during the 1242 raids or at another time. Vásáry emphasizes the smallness of the destruction during the raids and does not mention any battles or sieges. I would support an article about the Mongol raids of 1242 into the region, but it is probably better covered at the Battle of Mohi and Kaliman pages, as it sort of already is. The title, "Invasion of Bulgaria and Serbia" does seem to suggest that this event was something different than it was. Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:47, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, without prejudice to merging. I think ideally we'd have an article on the whole Hungary–Dalmatia–Bulgaria campaign, but as of now we have only this stub and an article on the one decisive battle (Mohi). The claim that Bulgaria fought a war with the Mongols seems entirely justified, from what I'm reading (Jackson, Mongols and the West). I will try to expand the article with sources in the coming days. For now, I have added citations where requested. Srnec (talk) 00:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Srnec. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- What I am looking at is an article that we ought to have, with sources, unless it is a fork of something else, to which it should be redirected or merged. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:22, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is being used as a wiki link for a number of "wars" between 1223 & 1341, that is what is is a POV fork off, the idea there were a number of Bulgarian Mongol wars.Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There were a number of wars between Bulgars and Mongols. Besides the campaign of 1242, Jackson mentions major campaigns in 1284/5 and again c. 1295, as well as a state of constant raiding in the 1270s and a sort of Bulgarian civil war involving the Mongols in 1300–01. The list of wars may be crap (haven't checked), but the article you've put up for deletion was entirely factually correct—and that's sourcing entirely from English academic publications. Srnec (talk) 01:42, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well when I looked for sources I could not find any. Moreover I asked for sources, and none were provided. In fact it took this AFD for any work to be done. Maybe the problem was the name of the article (and still is). After all this was a raid, not a war or invasion.Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.