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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete all. - Mailer Diablo 15:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Monster Zero Productions

[edit]

Nonnotable "virtual television network" (i.e., a website where people can post homemade TV shows made from clips of real shows). Delete this and all "shows" listed in the article:

NawlinWiki 21:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do not Delete per the following:
    • The Fempiror Chronicles is actually not a Monster Zero show, but a collection of stories that predates Monster Zero's existence on Wikipedia and has already established its own notability. This collection is also not exclusive to Monster Zero, but is actually listed in multiple places across the Internet, and has been widely read. It should not be lumped into the mix with Monster Zero just because it was listed in Monster Zero's article. Monster Zero is simply another site from which it can be read. Tubkas 13:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Monster Zero is actually quite a project that has been on the 'net for about 2 and a half years, and Virtual series are quickly becoming a staple of the Internet. The series in Monster Zero (original as well as spin-off) do not use clips from existing shows, but are scripts that are entirely the original work of the authors who write them, even though the spin-offs use existing universes for their frameworks. Budding writers can "pitch" ideas to the heads of this network and work on developing them in a professional-like environment. In the world of virtual series, MZP is one of the most notable. I believe Monster Zero can definitely stand on its own as an article and the individual shows judged on their own merits and notability. Tubkas 13:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Commment - this discussion is not about whether the sites and items exist - it is clear that they do; however, the discussion is whether they are notable enough to be included in an encyclopedic reference. They have had no mainstream media coverage that I can find. A Google search on "Monster Zero Productions" only returns 107 unique returns. "The Fempiror Chronicles" brings up only 49 unique, and most of those are copied from Wikipedia. Homeostasis +"virtual series" brings up only 27 unique, same conditions. These entries are clearly not notable, IMHO, and apparently that of the nominator. MikeWazowski 14:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Commment - What? So only things that have mainstream media attention can be on Wikipedia? Well cripes, better get deleting then because there's sure as sh*t a load of articles that breach this. What a ridiculous thing to say. There is an article on Wikipedia for Virtual Series, Virtual Seasons, fan fiction -- so by association, why not articles on the most noteable websites for these? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.160.63 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment - I will admit that these things are better known in smaller circles, but some statiscal info about Monster Zero's site that is readily displayed on the main page shows it has (when I just looked) 50,872 posts and 733 members. The Fempiror Chronicles shows a total number of hits across the three boards it is listed on of 5242, and that does not include hits the site itself might have received since that information is not readily available. Granted, since these are all message boards, not all of those hits are reads, but likely at least half if not more are clicks that resulted in a read of at least one of the stories. Not sure how notable that makes them, though. They both have pretty high numbers, so it's not like we're dealing with something that no one has ever seen before. I know when I consider a VS hub, MZP is what comes to mind, though. I can't help but wonder how much research the nominator did, since he refers to the series as using "clips of real shows" which they do not. His wording almost reads a bit vindictive. Tubkas 15:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I'm really failing to see the logic in this proposed deletion. A previous poster, who is in favor of deletion, questions the notability of MZP, Fempiror, and whether or not they warrant an encyclopedic reference. I say yes, especially in regards to a virtual series, which if searched on wiki will reference not only the series proposed for deletion, but Buffy, Angel, Banana Chan, and Galaxy Task Force Astroranger. In my opinion, all of these series are more than worthy of a listing based on their following, which is there despite the lack of media coverage that you so desperately require. Does media coverage really constitute what is an acceptable entertainment medium? Absolutely not. This is the internet we're talking about, and virtual entertainment in one form or another is what it's all about. There are literally millions of websites out there that have a built in fanbase and regular daily visitors without any media coverage. Perfect examples would be Maddox and Tucker Max. Both have huge internet followings, but are they regularly covered by the media, if at all? Not that I've seen, yet their pages are on wiki for all to see, and justifiably so based on their internet followings. I say let it ride, but if for some reason the articles do end up being deleted, you might as well hit up the fantasy football, baseball, etc. entries as well, because let's be honest, those are nothing more than virtual reality themselves. --Mike Shelton 16:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Also, approximately 125 full-length television scripts have been written for, posted on and read at Monster Zero Productions, which is a rather large number and continues to grow every week the site is running. -- AldenCaele 06:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - In this age of the internet, in which Wikipedia is often a virtual reality unto itself, novel uses of this medium will continually come to light. The so-called “virtual series” is one such phenomenon that will undoubtedly continue to grow, and it is somewhat ignorant to claim that a lack of mainstream media coverage is the sole criteria for inclusion into a vast information repository that prides itself on up-to-the-minute relevance. The virtual series not only deserves a Wikipedia definition, such as it is, but also examples of this novel form of storytelling, if only in the interests of completeness. The Fempiror Chronicles – one such series nominated for the axe – is as compelling and textured as any fiction that I have encountered on the internet. Not only is the series entertaining, but it is also instructive in terms of the providing a sterling example of the proper industry format for screenplays or teleplays, which also has value in and of itself. I, too, suspect this nominator has some kind of axe to grind, and question his motives at nominating something so clearly relevant to this age of virtual technology and entertainment. -- Robert Newcomer.
    • Comment - I also just noticed the comment "a website where people can post homemade TV shows made from clips of real shows" and feel the need to make a comment on this - it is ignorant and wrong. A virtual TV show is not a collection of clips from real shows, not at all, and by reading the virtual series/seasons articles on Wiki he would know this. Virtual TV is real scripts, in real script format, trying it's very best to be as entertaining as the real thing -- the quality is extremely high. This is a medium that is growing every day, and deserves to be represented.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.160.63 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment - As the guy who started MZP and has been running it quite merrily for the last two years, I feel I should also contest this propsed deletion on the grounds that the person voting for it in the first place clearly has zero understanding of what the site is all about. We're an online resource for scriptwriters to showcase their work, chat with other writers and fans and generally look to make themselves better writers and get our work out there into the wider world. The implication that we, and I quote, "post homemade TV shows made from clips of real shows" is pretty inaccurate - a large percentage of the work on MZP is 100% original, written work in professional script format. I'd say that the 165,000 hits our website has already registered is an indicator of our relative popularity! -- Captain MZ
    • Comment - A search on google for "virtual series" gets 34,900 hits, a search for "virtual season" gets 45,600. This is obviously a popular field of interest and will continue to grow.
      • Clarification - "virtual series" gets only 544 unique returns, which is the more important number. "virtual season" only brings back 622 unique. Very few those are MonsterZero releated, though - the concept *may* be popular, but that's not the focus of this discussion. MikeWazowski 05:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Monster Zero Productions is quite possibly the most well-known virtual network there is and has a number of shows which continue to impress and delight readers. The numbers quoted above show just how many people are invested in it and just how important it is to the web-community that it remains on wikipedia. A lot of hard work has gone into the wikipedia page and it most certainly shows, looking professional and accessible. The site is loved by many - as is this one - and it would be a shame to have it be taken off of wikipedia when there is such support for it to be here. It is a fantastic website with high quality and deserves the exposure wikipedia grants it. A number of other series allowed to remain here certainly do not warrant the same amount of readers and fans and yet they remain, so why shouldn't Monster Zero Productions? Long live MZP! -- Mr.Dark Fake signature.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.44.154 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment -Why should MZP be deleted when there are other shows that you aren't complaining about (and that is not a reason to). I am a member of the forum and I don't see what is wrong with having this here. It doesn't hurt anyone and you obviously wouldn't have looked at it if you weren't interested.--66.41.32.68 00:35, 21 September 2006 MZPite For Life!
    • Comment - Why would I use Wikipedia to search for information on things that are only available in mainstream media? I Wiki things that are hard to find info on. The Fempiror Chronicles have not been mentioned in any mainstream media that I know of, yet somehow I know for a fact that people from around the world that have read it. This series may even some day get snapped up by a major studio (it's that good). Why wouldn't Wikipedia want this virtual series to grace their site?Mz. Pia
    • Comment - MZP is a growing community for script writers and continues to be the number one place for virtual series and support for talented script writers. I don't see any reason why this page should be taken down.-- William C. Lonero
    • Comment -George is a tremendous writer, the question should not be why to leave in on wikipedia, but why not? Wikipedia is a user submitted site,the Net is user driven, so why shouldn't something that has a following on the net be noted here? you have a freaking article on the Numa Numa guy for Christ sakes, and yet you are wondering if this should be removed? I think George's script should take more priority over the Numa Numa guy,because it is more than a significant contribution to online literature and that should be noted. Numa guy lip-synched and gained fame, only thing he should be noted as is Milli-Vanilli Reloaded. why the need for the wiki page is not seen right now, i feel it should stay because the need for it will grow as the story and fan base does.(theprodigalson) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.63.96.118 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete all per nom. Naconkantari 01:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mz. Pia, are you for or against deleting it? Not judging just wondering.--66.41.32.68 02:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)MZPite For Life![reply]
    • CommentI'm not sure since this is my first time I've posted on Wikipedia but what's the deal with the attention signpost on the top of the article. The reason there are more posts here decrying the proposed deletion is because we all feel very strong on this matter and believe that this article should not be deleted- not as it is suggested "because someone told us to or there was some message posted in a forum". That is quite a narrow minded view to take of things to assume that is why there are so many comments against this deletion. Perhaps the editors should be aware that the posters of these comments are quite intelligent, informed individuals who are well aware this is a discussion- people discussing the reasons why this article is within the guidelines for articles to be on the site. Others have pointed out very good points why this article should remain to which I concur but I will add this- this is an informative article discussing the new phenomenon amongst fans first there was fan fiction that is now even being recognised/mentioned by tv series creators in the mainstream media now the next step is virtual series- people writing their own scripts. I'm sure in the next year or so people in the mainstream will start to take notice just as they did with fan fiction. However I find it highly amusing that the editors of wikipedia seem to think-that posters like myself and others here that disagree with this are mindless lemmings that all bombard this discussion board with rants because someone told us to or because it's part of some campaign. I assure you it's not. The posters of these comments wish to inform everyone who reads this of the complete inability of the first person who nominated this for deletion as evidenced by his comments- that he/she obviously have no idea what they're talking about. The fact that only two others have "agreed" with him on separate days about this deletion without adding any comments of themselves I think is suspect as well. Especially if you feel so strongly about something that you wish to delete it. I hope you, the editors can read all these posts for and against and come to a sensible, well thought out and fair decision after reading all these comments as the person who first nominated this for deletion, obviously didn't.Reeamya 03:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not DeleteI want it to stay of course :). Pia
    • I to have to say don't delete it on the idea that if Virtual Seasons, Virtual Series and other forms of this medium have notability - then one of the more established sites dedicated to them should be seen as notable. Xandmatt 14:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find this series to be very interesting and worth keep here on wikipedia. The internet is the only place where the little guy can be read by a large audience. If you take Fempiror (and all the other MZP entries), you will make these works that much less accessible. Phil

  • COMMENT: This network is EXTREMELY noteworthy, as it is one of only two online networks that I have seen on the internet that have stayed afloat and are worth any merit. They run like a real network, and it gives those writers who have to work out the kinks in their scripts the chance to do so for an actual audience. This article is worth it!

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  • Delete all - fail WP:WEB. BlueValour 02:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete All - fans, don't take it personally, there are specific criteria an article has to have to not be deleted. Go to WP:WEB and read "Criteria for web content". Your passion is lauded, however to be notable, you need links where somebody else is talking about you. Guyanakoolaid 08:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - "...to be notable, you need links where somebody else is talking about you." While I can't necessarily speak for Monster Zero on this account, my primary interest in this discussion is the Fempiror Chronicles, whose article opens with a list of comments where other people are talking about it. Those comments are drawn from three message boards and two blogs where someone else talked about it. None of those five sites are places that I have any control over, nor are the people anyone that I could influence to say something they don't mean (nor would I wish to). SimplyScripts is where it is most popular having nine pages of discussion/reviews and over 4,000 hits on its thread. -- Comments on this topic have been a mix of Monster Zero devotees and Fempiror devotees, and as I've stated before, grouping Fempiror with Monster Zero is kind of a case of death by association since the only reason it ended up here is because it is listed on that site. -- The other objection that has been brought up is the original nominator's knowledge of this topic. I find it very strange that this was brought to the table by someone whose definition comes no where near what Monster Zero actually represents, and actually cheapens the effort these people put into their site. This original argument is the backbone of this article for deletion discussion, and it just seems ironic that someone who nominates an article for deletion gives a definition that is not only completely incorrect, but actually seems to have been written to serve the sole purpose of influencing those who look at it to delete it. "Officially" notable or not, at least give us the credit of being writers and using our own creativity to make stories that are unique. Sure, some of them fall under a category of "fan fiction," but this in no way makes them "clips of real shows," which is a definition nothing short of insulting, especially considering that a good portion of the shows are not fan fiction, but completely original works. -- So if in the end we all end up being deleted because we're not notable enough yet, so be it. We can't control that. I did respect the comments left by those who did say Delete All after the original nominator, but... I think the biggest kick in the teeth was being nominated by an individual who (based purely on his definition) has no idea what we're doing, likely did not read the article, and clearly did not look up what a Virtual series is (even though that term has enough notability to remain on Wikipedia). George Willson 11:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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