Wiktionary:Information desk/2023/December

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← November 2023 · December 2023 · January 2024 → · (current)

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Category idea: "English terms spelled with emoji"?

Should there be a general category for English/Translingual/etc. terms spelled with emoji? It could contain, for example: w⚓, men ☕, woman ☕, ♥ing, 🧢ed, 🤡 world, ni🅱️🅱️a, 👁👄👁, 🤡🌏, 🔛🔝, 🙈🙉🙊, 🤓☝️

Because there doesn't seem to currently be a quick way to find these, besides manually paging thru
Category:Translingual terms by their individual characters &
Category:English terms by their individual characters

If yes, then...

• should the category also include individual emoji, ie all those found in Category:Supplemental Symbols and Pictographs block?
• are characters like ♥ and ☝ considered emoji?

–Vuccala (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@Vuccala: There is a discussion at Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits § "Cat:LANG terms spelled with INDIVIDUAL EMOJI": merge all to "Cat:LANG terms spelled with emoji". J3133 (talk) 22:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; pleased to hear it's already in progress. –Vuccala (talk) 23:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Alternate spellings only in e.g. US (not UK)

Hi! I ran across eying, which I gather is an uncommon alternate spelling of eyeing (see e.g. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=eyeing%2Ceying&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 ), used almost exclusively in American English.

Thought I'd try to capture this. I tried looking at a few pairs, like ambience/ambiance, fulfill/fulfil, enthrall/enthral, center/centre, and got some ideas, but wasn't clear how best to proceed.

Part of me wants to do a deep-dive on the topic, and try to standardize/standardise how Wiktionary shows common vs. uncommon + UK vs. US spelling, but... That would probably end in madness!

PS: Speaking of ambience/ambiance: ambience is (apparently) used far more (both UK & US) than ambiance, but the entries imply the opposite. Though if I had been forced to guess, I would've given ambiance as the more common, presumably due to it looking more like ambiancé, which is clearly the très chic spelling, natch! ;-D

PPS: "UK" above is intended to be shorthand for "Commonwealth" or "nearly everywhere outside of the US", but y'know, I'm trying to keep this short! See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences Mrienstra (talk) 22:14, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Part of me wants to do a deep-dive on the topic, and try to standardize/standardise how Wiktionary shows common vs. uncommon + UK vs. US spelling, but... That would probably end in madness!

Yes, I agree with all of that.

However, perhaps some learned mind can point to a guideline for how it's supposed to be handled at the moment?

—DIV (49.181.60.115 01:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC))

P.S. I would also have thought that ambiance was more common. Are you using Google ngrams using to test this? I quite like the tools at english-corpora.org.

P.P.S. Yes, sometimes British Commonwealth would be a more accurate/complete label than UK.

—DIV (49.181.60.115 01:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC))

The terms ambience and ambiance are not merely spelling alternatives. The latter can also be pronounced in a Frenchish way.  --Lambiam 00:12, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

the Latin verb is clearly ambiens, not *ambians. The change to an -a- may be regular in French or maybe French lost the verb and re-made it using the more productive /a/ paradigm. But our words come from Latin too, not just French. ambiance may exist in Eng as a separate borrowing from French, but i dont think i've ever seen it before and until now i would have assumed that it was a mistake; i note we dont currently accept ambiant as a variant spelling of ambient. —Soap— 11:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Formatting help

I'm trying to edit kab in a couple of different ways, as described on the discussion page. What this comes down to is that I don't find the documentation for use of senseid to be straightforward. Is there a handbook or guide for editing beyond the tutorial? Would appreciate any pointers here. Thanks, - Isakmonkey67 (talk) 20:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Interfix vs infix

See Category:English terms interfixed with -fucking- versus Category:English terms infixed with -fucking-. I can't tell what the difference is supposed to be. Ioaxxere (talk) 03:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

An infix is a morpheme inserted into an existing word, whereas an interfix is a morpheme fixed between other morphemic components. So unbe-fucking-lievable should be recategorized into Category:English terms infixed with -fucking-. Voltaigne (talk) 19:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done. unbe-fucking-lievable is now categorized with unbefuckinglievable and unfuckingbelievable in Category:English terms infixed with -fucking-. Voltaigne (talk) 19:45, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

See also Wiktionary:Tea room/2023/December#interfix; I doubt many average people understand the distinction we intend (since not even books about language always use the words the prescribed way), so making sure each category/template is used correctly is likely to be an open-ended maintenance task. - -sche (discuss) 23:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Fixing and Updating Tagalog Entries

Hello, I've been using Wiktionary extensively for a while now mostly for looking up Tagalog words and I noticed that a lot include verb conjugation entries in the derived terms section which is akin to including running, will run, ran, etc. for the entry to run so I'd like to clean it up.

But I'm hesitant on editing the page because of how many there are and if you need some kind of qualifications to edit it. I'm also particularly interested in adding conjugation tables for Tagalog verbs but I don't think that there are any video guides on how to do it. KanTala-Banghay (talk) 10:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Collating letters with accents in the same category as those without

In Portuguese lemmas, água is collated in A, as it should be. In Macanese lemmas, águ is counted as a word starting with Á, and that's not correct since like with Portuguese, the accented vowels in Macanese don't count as independent letters. I'm new to the behind-the-scenes stuff, so how can I make it so all words that start in an accented vowel are also counted with the words without? For example, águ going after agora but before amanhâm, rather than being in a category of words starting with Á. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Likewise, sâm should be collated right after sam. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I believe this is caused by pt having sort_key = {Latn = {remove_diacritics = c.grave .. c.acute .. c.circ .. c.tilde .. c.diaer .. c.cedilla}}, in Module:languages. Should the sorting for mzs be identical in all respects to Portuguese, does Macanese use (and sort) all of the same letters? - -sche (discuss) 17:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Macanese, in its contemporary written form, uses the exact same orthography as Portuguese, except the tilde is a lot rarer in Macanese. There's no official standardized orthography, but I use this glossary as my main source for words, and they don't sort by accented letters at all. Despite the lack of a standard, all the modern written sources like this and this use roughly the same Portuguese-based orthography. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I have set Macanese to have the same sort_key as Portuguese. It may take a while for the change to propagate out. - -sche (discuss) 17:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Or as they say in Macanese, muto brigado! Insaneguy1083 (talk) 17:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

RFV failing

When should an RFV request be marked as "failed"? A Westman talk stalk 17:59, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Please read the top of WT:RFV: "After a discussion has sat for more than a month..." Equinox ◑ 18:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Сам ты британец

Please translate. What does that mean? "You're British yourself"? Russian techno YouTube comment. lol. Техно навсегда. based. Equinox ◑ 15:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

"сам" is kinda like saying "no you". Vininn126 (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Equinox, @Vininn126: "Сам ты британец" sounds like "You're British, yourself". That's correct but it may be sounding slightly pejorative (really depends on the intonation and context) because "сам ты" or "сама ты" (to a woman) can be frequently used in the following situation:

- Ты дурак! (You're a fool!)

- Сам ты дурак! (You're a fool yourself!) Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:46, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Marathi noun अर्थ referenced with wrong gender according to dictionary

Hi, I am a complete newbie to wiktionary editing and I learn marathi. I spotted a wrong gender in a noun reference, but shy away to correct it, though it is obviously stated differently in both referenced dictionaries. I also started a discussion on that specific word. (It seems that it is always masculine gender, no matter if it means meaning or money. If true, that would also render the second declension wrong and it should also not be included in the category of marathi neuter nouns) What would be the right next steps to do, or whom to ask for an opinion? Can I just delete what I consider wrong, and put the definition money to the first list ??? Undekagon30 (talk) 19:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Link for convenience: अर्थ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the entry mannãa

Paging @This, that and the other and @Vuccala. So, I'm not an IPA expert, but just checking some random words here and there I usually see syllables either separated by a . or a ' (I might've understood this wrong, but I think ' is for stressed syllables and . for the other ones). But checking the entry mannãa, it has a ' and . put together on the pronunciation. Is this a mistake or did I understand it wrong? Amanyn (talk) 16:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Amanyn That's right, including a syllable break . is redundant because the primary ˈ and secondary ˌ stress markers already imply a syllable break. But apparently it's not forbidden either. Browsing of the page creations of the user who wrote that IPA (Special:Contributions/Liuscomaes), it looks to be that he wrote all his Portuguese pronunciations using .ˈ but most of which have since been replaced by the template {{pt-IPA}} which follows the more standard style of omitting the . when followed by a stress marker. And since the entry in question is in Old Galician-Portuguese, it never got replaced.

By the way, I didn't get your ping; I saw your question just by coincidence. I recommend using {{ping|User:Example}} to ping users automatically. -Vuccᴀʟᴀ (talk) 01:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Vuccala, Amanyn: the problem wasn't the syntax. It was the fact that they added it to something that was already signed. Pinging works by linking to the user page in the same edit as the signature to the post that contains the link. Every time I see someone add or correct a user name I cringe a little, because I know the ping won't go through, but it will look like it should have. Only someone who knows how pings work and who looks at the diffs will know the difference between an ignored ping that went through and an invalid one that just looks like it did. The solution is to add a link to the user page in the summary of the edit that fixes the ping- pings in edit summaries always go through if they're spelled and formatted right. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Thank you. I didn't know pings worked like that, will try to do it correctly in the future. Amanyn (talk) 11:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Vuccala Thank you for clarifying me. Amanyn (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)