Talk:Q1218

Description

Is Jerusalem really a city in Palestine? Even countries which recognize the Palestinian Authority as a state generally do not consider Jerusalem part of it. Israel officially annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, and had always controlled West Jerusalem. I therefore propose changing the description to "city (not capital) in Israel". I didn't want to do it myself, due to possible controversy, but will change it if no one objects. Ypnypn (talk) 23:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I believe when I created the item this was still the city in Israel. Somebody must have added Palestine later. I will amend it now.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

city or capital

to decide what is jerusalem city or capital. i want to know, who decide about capital the country or the UNO? (Sources will be good) -- yona b (talk) 15:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Please see a heated discussion at the bottom of my talk page. I will raise it now at the Project Chat--Ymblanter (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Wikidata:Project chat#Talk 1218--Ymblanter (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  If I understand correctly, Jerusalem holds the Israeli government, legislature, and supreme judiciary, the city is administered by Israel, and the city was established to be the capital under Israeli law. As far as I can see, any statements that it's not the capital are about international politics, and not intended to be descriptive/informative. Is this correct? --Yair rand (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  I don't understand what you mean by "not intended to be descriptive/informative". Guettarda (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  When a country does not "recognize" something, it does not always mean that they think it doesn't exist. Abkhazia isn't recognized by most countries. I'm pretty sure this doesn't mean that they think that the whole thing was a hoax. Armenia isn't recognized by Pakistan, North Korea isn't recognized by South Korea. To be honest, I have no idea why those kinds of statements are made. International politics is some pretty complex stuff, and I'm not particularly knowledgeable about it. However, it's pretty clear that statements like these are not meant for the purpose of legitimately informing people about which countries are where, where capitals are, and so on. Wikidata, on the other hand, does not have any political aims in making statements acknowledging the existence of certain facts. --Yair rand (talk) 16:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  "City" is descriptive and neutral. "Capital" is a divisive claim...after all, it's also claimed as the capital of the Palestinian state. We shouldn't get into these kinds of fights - leave them for Wikipedia where the hardcore activists can spend their time at each other's throats. Going down the road of picking one side over the other in the Israel-Palestine fight is begging for trouble. Guettarda (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  This is a perfect example of the idea for Wikidata of having multiple competing Statements with provenance. In this case Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (according to Israel), the capital of Palestine (according to Palestine), and so on (and Tel Aviv is similarly the capital of Israel according to a number of other countries); in the description we should take care to be neutral and just call it a city. James F. (talk) 17:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  There are sources that tell it is a capital and there are sources that tell it is not a capital. A parallel is to the fact if a person is homosexual or not. I'm not saying that this city is a gay capital, but very likely it is capital of something only the discussion is about which state. Carsrac (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

  And in my opinion this discussion does not belong to Wikidata, this is why the description should just state "city in Israel".--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The description should only have enough information to make the context of the topic clear. There is no need for it to make any controversial claims. Those belong in the Statements section. Notice, for example, how the description of the Pinnacle Islands says nothing about them being claimed by China or Japan. Kaldari (talk) 18:36, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The legal status of Jerusalem is a matter for a Wikipedia article, but de facto and de jure it is the capital of Israel: All the government institutions are there (i.e the parliament, supreme court etc.). It is also defined by law as the capital. The recognition of other countries is completely irrelevant. It is absurd to say that Tel Aviv is the capital. The UN can't decide for a country what is it's capital city, and I can't believe it's even in it's jurisdiction. ברוקולי (talk) 12:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

We need to tell president Obama, that in his visit in Israel next month he should not stay in Jerusalem and meet the president of Israel and the prime minister in Jerusalem. He has to insist that the visit will be conduct in Tel Aviv since editors in wikidata decided that Tel aviv is the capital city of Israel. We need also to write to all the countries that have diplomatic relationship with Israel, that they have to insist that all there future business with Israel goverment offices will be done in Tel Aviv. We need to write also to president Putin and asked him how dared he to conduct his visit on June 2012 in Jerusalem and not in Tel aviv. Hanay (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Each state determines what is the capital city, so Jerusalem is the capital city of the State of Israel חיים 7 (talk) 14:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The House of President, the Knesset, the Supreme Court and other state institutions all sit in Jerusalem. MathKnight (talk) 19:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia defines Capital city as follows: "A capital city or capital town (or simply capital) is the municipality enjoying primary status in a state, country, province, or other region as its seat of government. A capital is typically a city that physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of its respective government and is normally fixed by its law or constitution." If this definition applies, as a matter of fact, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The alternative is to omit mention of capital city status altogether in Wikidata (e.g., London: city in England). Oyoyoy (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

the next day we will have to change the name of israel to palestine because UN decided after all those years to delete finally the state of israel? noway. TZivyA (talk) 10:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly my point, actually. The description was already changed in the past into "Capital of the Palestine state". We already had the suggestion of "The city in the Middle East" as neutral. Do you really want the description being rolled back constantly between Capital of Israel and Capital of Palestine? There is certainly potential for this.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Currently, Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel. This is what should be recorded in Wikidate, and we can update this entry once it changes. Arguments about what should be the status of Jerusalem are irrelevant to this project, and in fact to any other Wikimedia project as well. ליאור (talk) 11:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Well some people believe that Jerusalem (actually, Al-Quds) is the capital of Palestine. And some people want it to be recorded in Wikidata and are not really prepared to negociate. As evidenced at the top of this page. And - surprise - the also do not care about UN. And they also think it is irrelevant to the project. And when they come back here - and they will come here, do not worry - you will have to seacrh for me and ask to revert what you will call vandalism. Concerning what should be "irrelevant" - why do not you start with English Wikipedia? The article on Jerusalem over there clearly reflects that there are such arguments.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thing is, it does not matter what some people believe; Jerusalem is for all intents and purposes the capital of Israel de facto (and as far as the state of Israel go, also de jure). It might or might not some day by the capital of another state, but currently it is not. Aviados (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Great. When they start changing the description to smth you do not like, you are welcome to contact me on my talk page. I will consider whether something could be done.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

As Oyoyoy wrote "A capital city or capital town (or simply capital) is the municipality enjoying primary status in a state, country, province, or other region as its seat of government". and this is the status of Jerusalem. there is nothing in Tel-aviv, and realy to define Tel-aviv as a capital city of Israel is a joke. I understand that Ymblanter was nominate as administrator, and since he is in minority in this discussion I hope he will respect the majority. Realy all this belong to wikipedia not here, and it is very sad that we start a new project and instead of putting facts, people try to push there political agenda.

Ymblanter, please follow president Obama visit in Jerusalem next month and see how he respect the status of Jerusalem as a capital city of Israel. Hanay (talk) 09:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

We have already edit warring in this article, and we had already previously info added that Jerusalem is a capitel of the state of Palestine. There will be more of this coming. Indeed, the whole discussion belongs to Wikipedia. Here, there is no majority: It is just a bunch of Hebrew Wikipedia editors, most of whom have very little contribution to Wikidata and possibly were canvassed outside the project. However, as I mentioned, I am not going to revert any future PoV edits.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Proof: en:Jerusalem Law. That is not enough? אורח פורח (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2013 (UTC)