Talk:Q1218

Description

Is Jerusalem really a city in Palestine? Even countries which recognize the Palestinian Authority as a state generally do not consider Jerusalem part of it. Israel officially annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, and had always controlled West Jerusalem. I therefore propose changing the description to "city (not capital) in Israel". I didn't want to do it myself, due to possible controversy, but will change it if no one objects. Ypnypn (talk) 23:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I believe when I created the item this was still the city in Israel. Somebody must have added Palestine later. I will amend it now.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Still has wrong description in Spanish. --Laboramus (talk) 20:00, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Changed to Israel. Conny (talk) 22:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC).

city or capital

to decide what is jerusalem city or capital. i want to know, who decide about capital the country or the UNO? (Sources will be good) -- yona b (talk) 15:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Please see a heated discussion at the bottom of my talk page. I will raise it now at the Project Chat--Ymblanter (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Wikidata:Project chat#Talk 1218--Ymblanter (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  If I understand correctly, Jerusalem holds the Israeli government, legislature, and supreme judiciary, the city is administered by Israel, and the city was established to be the capital under Israeli law. As far as I can see, any statements that it's not the capital are about international politics, and not intended to be descriptive/informative. Is this correct? --Yair rand (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  I don't understand what you mean by "not intended to be descriptive/informative". Guettarda (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  When a country does not "recognize" something, it does not always mean that they think it doesn't exist. Abkhazia isn't recognized by most countries. I'm pretty sure this doesn't mean that they think that the whole thing was a hoax. Armenia isn't recognized by Pakistan, North Korea isn't recognized by South Korea. To be honest, I have no idea why those kinds of statements are made. International politics is some pretty complex stuff, and I'm not particularly knowledgeable about it. However, it's pretty clear that statements like these are not meant for the purpose of legitimately informing people about which countries are where, where capitals are, and so on. Wikidata, on the other hand, does not have any political aims in making statements acknowledging the existence of certain facts. --Yair rand (talk) 16:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  "City" is descriptive and neutral. "Capital" is a divisive claim...after all, it's also claimed as the capital of the Palestinian state. We shouldn't get into these kinds of fights - leave them for Wikipedia where the hardcore activists can spend their time at each other's throats. Going down the road of picking one side over the other in the Israel-Palestine fight is begging for trouble. Guettarda (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  This is a perfect example of the idea for Wikidata of having multiple competing Statements with provenance. In this case Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (according to Israel), the capital of Palestine (according to Palestine), and so on (and Tel Aviv is similarly the capital of Israel according to a number of other countries); in the description we should take care to be neutral and just call it a city. James F. (talk) 17:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  There are sources that tell it is a capital and there are sources that tell it is not a capital. A parallel is to the fact if a person is homosexual or not. I'm not saying that this city is a gay capital, but very likely it is capital of something only the discussion is about which state. Carsrac (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

  And in my opinion this discussion does not belong to Wikidata, this is why the description should just state "city in Israel".--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The description should only have enough information to make the context of the topic clear. There is no need for it to make any controversial claims. Those belong in the Statements section. Notice, for example, how the description of the Pinnacle Islands says nothing about them being claimed by China or Japan. Kaldari (talk) 18:36, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The legal status of Jerusalem is a matter for a Wikipedia article, but de facto and de jure it is the capital of Israel: All the government institutions are there (i.e the parliament, supreme court etc.). It is also defined by law as the capital. The recognition of other countries is completely irrelevant. It is absurd to say that Tel Aviv is the capital. The UN can't decide for a country what is it's capital city, and I can't believe it's even in it's jurisdiction. ברוקולי (talk) 12:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

We need to tell president Obama, that in his visit in Israel next month he should not stay in Jerusalem and meet the president of Israel and the prime minister in Jerusalem. He has to insist that the visit will be conduct in Tel Aviv since editors in wikidata decided that Tel aviv is the capital city of Israel. We need also to write to all the countries that have diplomatic relationship with Israel, that they have to insist that all there future business with Israel goverment offices will be done in Tel Aviv. We need to write also to president Putin and asked him how dared he to conduct his visit on June 2012 in Jerusalem and not in Tel aviv. Hanay (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Each state determines what is the capital city, so Jerusalem is the capital city of the State of Israel חיים 7 (talk) 14:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The House of President, the Knesset, the Supreme Court and other state institutions all sit in Jerusalem. MathKnight (talk) 19:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia defines Capital city as follows: "A capital city or capital town (or simply capital) is the municipality enjoying primary status in a state, country, province, or other region as its seat of government. A capital is typically a city that physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of its respective government and is normally fixed by its law or constitution." If this definition applies, as a matter of fact, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The alternative is to omit mention of capital city status altogether in Wikidata (e.g., London: city in England). Oyoyoy (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

the next day we will have to change the name of israel to palestine because UN decided after all those years to delete finally the state of israel? noway. TZivyA (talk) 10:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly my point, actually. The description was already changed in the past into "Capital of the Palestine state". We already had the suggestion of "The city in the Middle East" as neutral. Do you really want the description being rolled back constantly between Capital of Israel and Capital of Palestine? There is certainly potential for this.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Currently, Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel. This is what should be recorded in Wikidate, and we can update this entry once it changes. Arguments about what should be the status of Jerusalem are irrelevant to this project, and in fact to any other Wikimedia project as well. ליאור (talk) 11:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Well some people believe that Jerusalem (actually, Al-Quds) is the capital of Palestine. And some people want it to be recorded in Wikidata and are not really prepared to negociate. As evidenced at the top of this page. And - surprise - the also do not care about UN. And they also think it is irrelevant to the project. And when they come back here - and they will come here, do not worry - you will have to seacrh for me and ask to revert what you will call vandalism. Concerning what should be "irrelevant" - why do not you start with English Wikipedia? The article on Jerusalem over there clearly reflects that there are such arguments.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thing is, it does not matter what some people believe; Jerusalem is for all intents and purposes the capital of Israel de facto (and as far as the state of Israel go, also de jure). It might or might not some day by the capital of another state, but currently it is not. Aviados (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Great. When they start changing the description to smth you do not like, you are welcome to contact me on my talk page. I will consider whether something could be done.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

As Oyoyoy wrote "A capital city or capital town (or simply capital) is the municipality enjoying primary status in a state, country, province, or other region as its seat of government". and this is the status of Jerusalem. there is nothing in Tel-aviv, and realy to define Tel-aviv as a capital city of Israel is a joke. I understand that Ymblanter was nominate as administrator, and since he is in minority in this discussion I hope he will respect the majority. Realy all this belong to wikipedia not here, and it is very sad that we start a new project and instead of putting facts, people try to push there political agenda.

Ymblanter, please follow president Obama visit in Jerusalem next month and see how he respect the status of Jerusalem as a capital city of Israel. Hanay (talk) 09:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

We have already edit warring in this article, and we had already previously info added that Jerusalem is a capitel of the state of Palestine. There will be more of this coming. Indeed, the whole discussion belongs to Wikipedia. Here, there is no majority: It is just a bunch of Hebrew Wikipedia editors, most of whom have very little contribution to Wikidata and possibly were canvassed outside the project. However, as I mentioned, I am not going to revert any future PoV edits.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Proof: en:Jerusalem Law. That is not enough? אורח פורח (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

1. May be. Unfortunately, Wikipedia isn't famous for its capacity for resolving political controversies (that is not to say that Wikidata is the place for it, perhaps it's not). 2. The city may well be Palestine's capital as well (at least de jure), if its government decides so; it does not contradict the fact that it currently serves as Israel's capital, both according to the state's law and in practice. 3. In any case, a majority cannot be regarded as the sole constituent of "truth". 4. Indeed, it is not by chance that several Hebrew Wikipedia editors popped up here, but neither were they "canvassed"; rather, the debate here was simply brought up in the he.wiki Village pump (policy) as part of the discussion that followed Lydia Pintscher's announcement regarding the initial launching of Wikidata. Eto vsyo. Aviados (talk) 01:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I see nationalism is already contaminating and degrading Wikidata. 'capital city of Israel' is clearly inconsistent with Help:Description. Not only is it non-neutral and a controversial claim, it is redundant. There's no practical need to disambiguate Jerusalem from anything by adding a description. Descriptions do not appear to be mandatory and in this case not having one is probably a simple solution to avoid the usual pointless bickering. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This should not be listed as the capital city of Israel.--Ezzex (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Add link to Interlingue Wikipedia

I am not able to add the link to the corresponding article in the Interlingue Wikipedia ie:Jerusalem. Would be nice if someone can do for me. Thank you! Valodnieks (talk) 23:26, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Done, thanks for the remark! --Denny (talk) 14:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Population (precision)

Manually changed "±1" to "±0" as workaround per suggestion at Property talk:P1082. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Jerusalem

hi, first i want to say there is a big mistake here about the status of Jerusalem because it's not the capital of israel(Israel demands this) and there is another big group of people demands to be capital of their country(Palestinians) and in the principle the land belongs to the Palestinians according to historical facts. so there is a many of view points here We must respect all views not one at the expense of the other. and if we go back to 1967 we will find the Israel took the Jerusalem from Palestine state illegally and this according united nations, most of countries and the Historical facts. so right now I ask the people responsible to make A solution that satisfies the parties and changed the status to (Palestine/Israel) or A disputed city and don't forget that the UN and the most of our world countirs Recognizes that the Palestinians have a right to their land and to Jerusalem city, thanks and have great day. --Elbasyouny (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

It is the seat of Israeli government, hence it is the capital of Israel. Ramallah is the current seat of PL government; treat that as you may. François Robere (talk) 07:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

It is worthwhile to be precise in the facts. When Jerusalem was established there was no such thing as "Palestinians". In fact, even today there is no such thing. This is a late political invention. Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel, Judea and the State of Israel!Even zohar (talk) 08:43, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Even zohar: consider reading the Wikipedia article on the origins of the name "Palestine". --Bender235 (talk) 14:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Flag and Emblem

The territory is disputed by two populations, so it is not appropriate to have a non-neutral flag and emblem that only represent Israel, as shown in some articles. Alternatively, we could include both flags, but in some versions of Wikipedia, there is no designated space in the infobox to accommodate both. Therefore, the most suitable solution would be to remove both flags. Riad Salih (talk) 01:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Would a flag display if the property is deprecated? We could retain both flags and deprecate both for now. Elizium23 (talk) 01:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elizium23 They lack official recognition, so I don't think we should add them at the moment since they don't hold much importance. Additionally, I'm convinced that "pov pushers" might eventually edit the page to manipulate the property's ranking and attempt to restore its presence on Wikipedia, Since it's the case almost every day on Jerusalem's article.

What are your thoughts?

Regards Riad Salih (talk) 11:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

If lacking official recognition, then I would oppose adding them at all. Elizium23 (talk) 11:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Since flag and emblem are used in Israel in official capacity, it is better to add those values as possible to prevent anyone from adding them once more and deprecate them. As I did now. stjn^[ru] 20:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "lack of official recognition"? They have been widely used for long time at installations all over Jerusalem by the Municipality of Jerusalem as the factually governing body, as well as on their documents, publicity materials, websites etc. If you dispute the authority of the Municipality of Jerusalem, then you'd have to depracate many other statements as well: mayor, ZIP code, partnerships, membership in various organization, telephone prefix etc. Flag and coat-of-arms has no less recognition than all of these. Shlomo (talk) 12:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

A flag is typically something that is a daily reminder of the allegiance of whatever property it's on. For example, in the US the flags are hoisted every day, or on a sailing vessel. So an "official recognition" corresponds to the particular flag hoisted on that particular day by that particular organization: that's a three-way intersection.

Likewise, an emblem is affixed to correspondence or communications by a particular organization when indicating official use of such a communications method.

So in order to accurately document or prove "official recognitions" we'd need to account for those variables; reliable sources may consist of a photograph of the property with a clearly-identifiable flag flying outside.

But to argue about "official recognition" as an abstract concept in one of the most contentious topic areas is futile. Elizium23 (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume, there are enough photographs depicting Jerusalem's flag or coat-of-arms clearly used by the municipality or its official representants. I hope, it is not demanded to post daily photographs to prove that the Jerusalem flag is hoisted every day as the US flag is, since we don't do it in the case of US flag either…

Shlomo (talk) 05:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Once again: the flag and coat of arms of Jerusalem that are present in the item are symbols used by Israel. They are not universally recognised symbols of the city given that it is a city with a disputed status. Israel’s claim to the entire city is mostly unrecognised, apart from a few countries. Please do not remove deprecated rank since this adds non-neutral symbols in violation of NPOV principle to the data consumers using this article. stjn^[ru] 13:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, ideally, there should not be any biased statements in favour of Israel or Palestine here. Same how Sevastopol (Q7525) has no mayor property at all. So you are welcome to remove the statements for mayor but please do not make other statements more biased just because one of those properties already is. stjn^[ru] 19:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Update: moved mayors appropriately to Mayor of Jerusalem (Q2276266) item. stjn^[ru] 19:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)